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Progress Sprinter resurrection

Shockwav3Shockwav3
edited December 2011 in Hardware
I've been digging through my HDD once again and found all the docs on the sprinter again (pcb files/schematics/solder plans/bios sources/software etc.) and remembered some guys on the zx.pk.ru were even starting to build their own, even tho something was still missing (from my understanding the FPGA core [even tho there are various sources for the Altera Chips included?]).

Is there any update on this?
Or asked different ... is there anything left that would hinder one from rebuilding a Sprinter?
Post edited by Shockwav3 on
Pentagon 48/128, ZS Scorpion 256 Turbo+, Compact 256 Turbo, Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K (DK'Tronic case, Fuller FDS case, Timex case variant), Timex Sinclair TC2048, Sprinter 2016S, Didaktik M, CoBra, TK90X, TK95, ATM Turbo 2+, Pentagon 1024SL 2.2

Comments

  • kgmcneilkgmcneil
    edited July 2010
    ...your a brave man attempting that!... Its a pity there aren't more groups, companys out there that hire out their services for helping to put things like this together, for amatuers who can't solder or program FPGA's...

    ...Id give my right arm to have the necessary experience and knowledge required to attempt something like that, but I don't know one end of a soldering iron from the other!!!!!!

    Good Luck!!!

    PS: Was looking at this webpage, http://nedopc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7333 , which implied that the sprinter has some compatibility differences between itself and zx software... If there was going to be a resurection of the sprinter (and I hope there is, because I think the zx scene can thrive better with diversity), I wondered whether people would simply recreate the original 97/2000 model or whether they would update it to either improve compatibilities or extend its abilities?...

    Do you know of any ongoing projects to create a new updated version of such a sprinter clone?... maybe a sprinter 2010 model, perhaps?...
  • Shockwav3Shockwav3
    edited July 2010
    Soldering and programming shouldn't be the main problem, as there are usually enough hobbyists around which can do either or even both ... considering the hardware we're talking about is usually made in small batches of let's say 10-200.

    As far as I know there's currently no effort to further develop the Sprinter, as quite frankly ... every old MSDOS PC can do the same or even more (and prolly has better AY emulation, since the Sprinter has a circuit made up from resistor networks, rather than a real AY/YM chip).
    The best approach prolly would be "porting" the Sprinter BIOS/ROM to the PentEvo or even the Pentagon 1024SL v2.666 (which can drive it's synthesized Z80 at up to 80MHz)

    Therefore the only remaining interesting stuff on the Sprinter would be software written for the Sprinter mode, which is pretty rare ... IIRC there's just the OS, some builder dash clone game and a "doom" demo engine.
    In the end I'm quite doubtful the Sprinter will take off again ... since it never did even in it's hey-day.

    In the end it's all about rebuilding hardware (which is a hobby of mine actually) of one the clones that shouldn't be ... just like the ATM-Turbo (which is a branch of the Scorpion or Pentagon), the ZX-Next (which is a ISA-card-like based machine with an active backplane) or various add-ons like the DMA-Ultrasound (8x Covox with DMA capability [basically a General Sound card without it's own CPU/RAM]) or the soundrive (4x Covox)

    If you want something useful made from real speccy-esque hardware your best bet prolly is one of the recent "Penta-Clones" with ZX-Bus
    Pentagon 48/128, ZS Scorpion 256 Turbo+, Compact 256 Turbo, Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K (DK'Tronic case, Fuller FDS case, Timex case variant), Timex Sinclair TC2048, Sprinter 2016S, Didaktik M, CoBra, TK90X, TK95, ATM Turbo 2+, Pentagon 1024SL 2.2
  • SpiranthoSpirantho
    edited July 2010
    The great thing about the Sprinter, though, is that it's FPGA-based. A new Sprinter could use a more advanced FPGA for a more advanced emulation... it could even have different modes for other Z80-based machines. For that matter, a Sprinter follow-up could skip the CPU entirely and use the FPGA for that too.

    There's a lot the Sprinter can do that hasn't been touched on because of lack of users - you have a fast Z80 (21MHz isn't it, from memory), 4MB (usually) of RAM, a completely programmable display card, and to top it all an 8-bit ISA bus.

    All it needs is the people to program it!
  • Shockwav3Shockwav3
    edited July 2010
    Spirantho wrote: »
    The great thing about the Sprinter, though, is that it's FPGA-based. A new Sprinter could use a more advanced FPGA for a more advanced emulation... it could even have different modes for other Z80-based machines. For that matter, a Sprinter follow-up could skip the CPU entirely and use the FPGA for that too.
    That's pretty much where the PentEvo and Pentagon 1024SL v2.666 hook in. Fully FPGA based with Z80 CPUs running at up to 25MHz or a synthesized Z80 inside the FPGA running at up to 80MHz and mods for using up to 4096 colors without attribute clash being available.
    The ISA bus might be interesting ... but then again, what would you want that for nowadays, except for network cards maybe.
    Pentagon 48/128, ZS Scorpion 256 Turbo+, Compact 256 Turbo, Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K (DK'Tronic case, Fuller FDS case, Timex case variant), Timex Sinclair TC2048, Sprinter 2016S, Didaktik M, CoBra, TK90X, TK95, ATM Turbo 2+, Pentagon 1024SL 2.2
  • ShiruShiru
    edited July 2010
    Shockwav3 wrote: »
    since the Sprinter has a circuit made up from resistor networks, rather than a real AY/YM chip)
    Which one? Sp2000 has TDA1543 DAC for audio.
  • Shockwav3Shockwav3
    edited July 2010
    Shiru wrote: »
    Which one? Sp2000 has TDA1543 DAC for audio.
    I've always thought these 3 R2R bridges (+ latches?) were used for emulating the AY ... 1 channel each ... at least that's what I read somewhere (saying the AY was hard to obtain in russia for a while, so the designers went with this option).
    But then again, that statement might be limited to the Sp97, as it doesn't seem to feature the TDA1543

    I guess I should overview the schematics at least for once :P
    Pentagon 48/128, ZS Scorpion 256 Turbo+, Compact 256 Turbo, Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K (DK'Tronic case, Fuller FDS case, Timex case variant), Timex Sinclair TC2048, Sprinter 2016S, Didaktik M, CoBra, TK90X, TK95, ATM Turbo 2+, Pentagon 1024SL 2.2
  • zxbrunozxbruno
    edited July 2010
    This reminds me I have a SpeccyBob board somewhere (just the board) and have no idea what to do with it...
  • WinstonWinston
    edited July 2010
    Apropos of nothing, but if I were to make a DAC with an FPGA, I wouldn't use a resistor ladder, rather a 1 bit DAC (less resources, less FPGA pins, fewer external components, really all you need is a low pass filter to complete the DAC, i.e. one resistor and one capacitor).
  • Shockwav3Shockwav3
    edited July 2010
    Winston wrote: »
    Apropos of nothing, but if I were to make a DAC with an FPGA, I wouldn't use a resistor ladder, rather a 1 bit DAC (less resources, less FPGA pins, fewer external components, really all you need is a low pass filter to complete the DAC, i.e. one resistor and one capacitor).
    But that would require more FPGA cells (I guess at least) :P Considering all the discrete stuff on the Sprinter, I guess space already was scarce ... but then again, the P1024SL 2.666 synthesizes the YM, rather than have an actual chip.
    Pentagon 48/128, ZS Scorpion 256 Turbo+, Compact 256 Turbo, Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K (DK'Tronic case, Fuller FDS case, Timex case variant), Timex Sinclair TC2048, Sprinter 2016S, Didaktik M, CoBra, TK90X, TK95, ATM Turbo 2+, Pentagon 1024SL 2.2
  • Mister BeepMister Beep
    edited July 2010
    Shockwav3 wrote: »
    PentEvo and Pentagon 1024SL v2.666 hook in. Fully FPGA based with Z80 CPUs running at up to 25MHz or a synthesized Z80 inside the FPGA running at up to 80MHz and mods for using up to 4096 colors without attribute clash being available.

    Eva has 4096 colors? I thought it has max. 102.
    Is there any video on YouTube, illustrating the feature?
    Greetings,
    MB
    ZX Spectrum 48K BEEPER Music:
    http://mister_beep.republika.pl/
  • ShiruShiru
    edited July 2010
    Evo has only 2 bits pers color channel, unfortunately.
  • Shockwav3Shockwav3
    edited July 2010
    Oops ... I guess this only applies to the Pentagon 1024SL 2.2

    http://realddp.narod.ru/zx/pal444/index.htm
    (third last post has some examples)
    Pentagon 48/128, ZS Scorpion 256 Turbo+, Compact 256 Turbo, Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K (DK'Tronic case, Fuller FDS case, Timex case variant), Timex Sinclair TC2048, Sprinter 2016S, Didaktik M, CoBra, TK90X, TK95, ATM Turbo 2+, Pentagon 1024SL 2.2
  • ShiruShiru
    edited July 2010
    It is only an idea of hardware add-on. Although it was tested by the author, it is not presented on any other P1024SL than his.
  • Mister BeepMister Beep
    edited July 2010
    I don't know...
    It doesn't look even like 256 colors. Hm.
    art_10_capt.jpg
    ZX Spectrum 48K BEEPER Music:
    http://mister_beep.republika.pl/
  • ShiruShiru
    edited July 2010
    Because it is 16 colors from palette of 4096.
  • Mister BeepMister Beep
    edited July 2010
    Shiru wrote: »
    Because it is 16 colors from palette of 4096.

    I see.
    So that would be an equivalent of Atari STE.
    Interesting.
    ZX Spectrum 48K BEEPER Music:
    http://mister_beep.republika.pl/
  • SparkySparky
    edited July 2010
    Sad thing is, I bought a Sprinter, once upon a time ago, but never was able to get a monitor it worked on here in the USA. Finding an RGB PAL broadcast signal capable display device (SCART is only a European standard) in the land of NTSC was next to impossible. So-called "Multisync" monitors were already outdated by that time. My monitor at the time couldn't do anything less than 60Hz/32KHz (VGA).

    It was a project I never bothered getting back to. I still have the Sprinter and the DVDs. It's just I never turned it on. Sad, I know.

    Oh well...
  • Shockwav3Shockwav3
    edited July 2010
    Sparky wrote: »
    Sad thing is, I bought a Sprinter, once upon a time ago, but never was able to get a monitor it worked on here in the USA. Finding an RGB PAL broadcast signal capable display device (SCART is only a European standard) in the land of NTSC was next to impossible. So-called "Multisync" monitors were already outdated by that time. My monitor at the time couldn't do anything less than 60Hz/32KHz (VGA).
    hm hm ... looking at the schematics, the Sprinter indeed seems to only output PAL-RGB ... one possible thing you could try would be building a so called PALCoder (example of such a circuit here -> http://www.nedopc.com/PALCODER/coderCsch.png) which would take the RGB signal and convert it to Composite or S-Video which should help you interface the Sprinter to a NTSC-TV at least as those commonly have RCA jacks to my knowledge. According to the docs and contraty to the name, these "palcoders" can also translate the signal to 60Hz (even tho that never worked on my Pentagon [which has a different circuit based upon a MC1377 anyways]).
    If you want so, I could order above palcoder from nedoPC for you, the next time I place an order there ... iirc those are pretty cheap costing less than $10 (too lazy to check right now).
    Sparky wrote: »
    It was a project I never bothered getting back to. I still have the Sprinter and the DVDs. It's just I never turned it on. Sad, I know.

    Oh well...
    I'll take it, if you want it's existence as a dust catcher to stop :P
    Pentagon 48/128, ZS Scorpion 256 Turbo+, Compact 256 Turbo, Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K (DK'Tronic case, Fuller FDS case, Timex case variant), Timex Sinclair TC2048, Sprinter 2016S, Didaktik M, CoBra, TK90X, TK95, ATM Turbo 2+, Pentagon 1024SL 2.2
  • SparkySparky
    edited July 2010
    I was going to build a PAL composite circuit and already had the right chips and such. The video capture card on my PC was quite capable of composite PAL, but other things came up and I never got back to building the circuit. The saddest thing is, I really don't feel like building one now.
    Shockwav3 wrote: »
    hm hm ... looking at the schematics, the Sprinter indeed seems to only output PAL-RGB ... one possible thing you could try would be building a so called PALCoder (example of such a circuit here -> http://www.nedopc.com/PALCODER/coderCsch.png) which would take the RGB signal and convert it to Composite or S-Video which should help you interface the Sprinter to a NTSC-TV at least as those commonly have RCA jacks to my knowledge. According to the docs and contraty to the name, these "palcoders" can also translate the signal to 60Hz (even tho that never worked on my Pentagon [which has a different circuit based upon a MC1377 anyways]).
    If you want so, I could order above palcoder from nedoPC for you, the next time I place an order there ... iirc those are pretty cheap costing less than $10 (too lazy to check right now).

    I'll take it, if you want it's existence as a dust catcher to stop :P
  • Shockwav3Shockwav3
    edited July 2011
    *bump* So would anyone of you have a really, really cheap way to design larger PCBs (218x176mm) with SMD pads? I've just dug through the gerber files I have again and looked if I could get a decent offer from any PCB plants. 120€ seems to be the bare minimum for a low quality PCB, which is way to expensive for me currently (that way a whole config would be like 200€, as i.e. the RAM chips used are discontinued and can't be obtained for cheap anymore) :/

    An alternative approach (I kinda feel bad about to ask tbh) would be asking for donations to build such a "prototype" from the available docs and then offer fully built sprinters at no assembly costs to donators. There'd be no guarantee it would work out and the round-trip time (payment to delivery) would prolly be beyond good and evil [considering there are 5-10 people who'd donate I suppose it could take up to 6 months til you get your board], but it's an option. Any general opinions about that?

    Even tho the Sprinter certainly isn't the most interesting clone/compatible anymore (considering the PentEvo and Pentagon SL 2.666 feature larger FPGAs and better extras) and/or the emulated machines being available as their discrete originals it would still be an interesting project to take up. Also the original full powered Sprinter mode seems to be unemulated so far (and too complex to port to the PentEvo). So there's a certain point in this.

    As a little extra: here's the PCB in the editor (removed the "copper webs" to hinder cloning by scanning/x-raying for better visibility) ... 3d preview here

    On a sidenote: There've been people on zx.pk.ru who've built their own sprinters which seem to be fully working (as all required files are available by now), but those are based on a slightly newer PCB revision which was made by the original developer, but never populated or sold til 2 years ago - so chances are good this project might work out in the end.
    Pentagon 48/128, ZS Scorpion 256 Turbo+, Compact 256 Turbo, Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K (DK'Tronic case, Fuller FDS case, Timex case variant), Timex Sinclair TC2048, Sprinter 2016S, Didaktik M, CoBra, TK90X, TK95, ATM Turbo 2+, Pentagon 1024SL 2.2
  • Shockwav3Shockwav3
    edited July 2011
    Short update: appears there are still a large amount of unused sprinter boards around for sale by the original dev. Price per board would be 500rub (~12.50€) and those are free of errors in the layout (some resistor values have to be adapted but otherwise they're fine, as people over at zx.pk.ru have built working sprinters with them).
    Sadly he's only offering them for local pickup in St. Petersburg, but I've asked if he'd ship them as well. Would anyone of you be interested in one of these boards if the reply is positive? 2 slightly different versions are available - one featuring 4 SOJ chips for RAM (AS7C1024-12JC), the other featuring 8 DIP chips (W24512AK-15)

    Just keep in mind building a Sprinter involves SMD parts, discontinued/russian chips (later can be adapted to 74-series TTL chips) and for the version of the board _no soldering plans_ meaning you'd have to get the values of the chips/discrete parts out of the scheme. No assembly service this time (unless the reply is negative and the donation based thing works out).

    On the donation based thing ... any response would be cool, even if it's just "nah, not interested" or "slightly interested, but too expensive".
    Pentagon 48/128, ZS Scorpion 256 Turbo+, Compact 256 Turbo, Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K (DK'Tronic case, Fuller FDS case, Timex case variant), Timex Sinclair TC2048, Sprinter 2016S, Didaktik M, CoBra, TK90X, TK95, ATM Turbo 2+, Pentagon 1024SL 2.2
  • YerzmyeyYerzmyey
    edited July 2011
    I have my Sprinter for years, so I just can say it's worth to have one. Its compatibility is, I think, like 95% or higher? It has covox (and soundrive, if I recall) implemented.
    Z80 with 21Mhz and the turbo mode can be changed "on flight", with F12 key.
    And it SAVES by itself, unlike the ZX Evolution. Also its FDD controler is better because one can connect any 3,5" drive from PC and it will work ad a ZX Spectrum FDD (which is impossible in ZX Evolution).
    I found only one small problem with AY. It doesn't have FX commands with "0". C000, E000 and so on (well-know from SoundTracker). They remain silent silent on Sprinter which isn't too cool, because some programs use them after all.
    Still, it's a nice machine. :) Surely one of my favourites.
    ZX81/ZX Spectrum/Amiga/Atari music: http://yerzmyey.i-demo.pl/
  • Shockwav3Shockwav3
    edited July 2011
    Yerzmyey wrote: »
    I have my Sprinter for years, so I just can say it's worth to have one. Its compatibility is, I think, like 95% or higher? It has covox (and soundrive, if I recall) implemented.
    Z80 with 21Mhz and the turbo mode can be changed "on flight", with F12 key.
    And it SAVES by itself, unlike the ZX Evolution. Also its FDD controler is better because one can connect any 3,5" drive from PC and it will work ad a ZX Spectrum FDD (which is impossible in ZX Evolution).
    I found only one small problem with AY. It doesn't have FX commands with "0". C000, E000 and so on (well-know from SoundTracker). They remain silent silent on Sprinter which isn't too cool, because some programs use them after all.
    Still, it's a nice machine. :) Surely one of my favourites.
    Might come as a little shock to tell you this, but the Sprinter doesn't have an AY/YM but instead part of the FPGA catches the specific opcodes/ports and maps them to a 3x covox/DA (which is basically a soundrive [except that the soundrive has 4 covoxes actually]).
    Certainly quite a nice clone and technically very advanced for the time it was released.
    Compatibility probably is around 95% for the Sinclair machines and 99.5% for the Pentagon/Scorpion modes. Quite frankly the ISA bus is a really neat feature allowing you to use _any_ pc add-on card, as long as you can supply/write drivers for them (Gravis Ultrasound anyone?) but a NEMO Bus (which wasn't defined by that time yet) would be more useful today.

    I haven't checked up too much on the ZX Evolution so far, but what's the issue with the floppies there? From what I gathered any PC drive should work out of the box.
    Pentagon 48/128, ZS Scorpion 256 Turbo+, Compact 256 Turbo, Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K (DK'Tronic case, Fuller FDS case, Timex case variant), Timex Sinclair TC2048, Sprinter 2016S, Didaktik M, CoBra, TK90X, TK95, ATM Turbo 2+, Pentagon 1024SL 2.2
  • YerzmyeyYerzmyey
    edited July 2011
    Shockwav3:

    > Might come as a little shock to tell you this, but the Sprinter doesn't have an AY/YM but instead part of the FPGA catches the specific opcodes/ports and maps them to a 3x covox/DA (which is basically a soundrive [except that the soundrive has 4 covoxes actually]).
    ****************
    Yupp, I know. It's shorter to write "AY" than "AY's implementation". :)
    The same goes to Covox.
    Btw, ZX Evo has also Covox' implementation instead of old dusty hardware Covox. ;)


    > Certainly quite a nice clone and technically very advanced for the time it was released.
    Compatibility probably is around 95% for the Sinclair machines and 99.5% for the Pentagon/Scorpion modes. Quite frankly the ISA bus is a really neat feature allowing you to use _any_ pc add-on card, as long as you can supply/write drivers for them (Gravis Ultrasound anyone?)
    ***********
    Now THIS would be a nice idea. ;)


    > I haven't checked up too much on the ZX Evolution so far, but what's the issue with the floppies there? From what I gathered any PC drive should work out of the box.
    ************
    Only old PC FDD drives work. Density problem. Those new ones aren't designed for density smaller than 1,4Mb. Controller doesn't know what to do with them.
    I've been told one has to find old (and working :) ) FDD drives of PC to make them work on ZX Evo.
    ZX81/ZX Spectrum/Amiga/Atari music: http://yerzmyey.i-demo.pl/
  • Shockwav3Shockwav3
    edited July 2011
    Yerzmyey wrote: »
    > I haven't checked up too much on the ZX Evolution so far, but what's the issue with the floppies there? From what I gathered any PC drive should work out of the box.
    ************
    Only old PC FDD drives work. Density problem. Those new ones aren't designed for density smaller than 1,4Mb. Controller doesn't know what to do with them.
    I've been told one has to find old (and working :) ) FDD drives of PC to make them work on ZX Evo.
    Getting slightly offtopic: Ah yes, but that's nothing you can blame on the ZX Evo tho, since that is a problem with disk drive manufacturers who're trying to save costs to the point where drives become useless. On hardware level the ZX Evolution follows the interface standards allowing to use modern drives (i.e. it even supports the "cable twist" approach rather than setting the drive ID with a jumper) ... while the drive controllers themselves are quite crippled these days.
    Pentagon 48/128, ZS Scorpion 256 Turbo+, Compact 256 Turbo, Sinclair ZX Spectrum 48K (DK'Tronic case, Fuller FDS case, Timex case variant), Timex Sinclair TC2048, Sprinter 2016S, Didaktik M, CoBra, TK90X, TK95, ATM Turbo 2+, Pentagon 1024SL 2.2
  • LCDLCD
    edited July 2011
    I have a Sprinter 2000 and it took me ages to obtain four more of these 512 KBit SRAM Chips to expand the SAM to full 512 Kb Video RAM, but I was not able to test it (512x256 at 256 colours) Is there a test program? Some days ago I got a offer to buy 4 more of these chips, so I got a reserve now.
    Speaking about Software: z88dk supports the Sprinter2000, but I do not speak ANSI C and there are no advanced librarys AFAIK, so I hope, Boriel will expand ZX BASIC Compiler for this platform too as it is very tempting to write some games on Sprinter.
    Speaking about hardware: I would like to get a new Sprinter board and I can even solder the chips, but I'm not very good in reading schematics. Even the DivIDE is very problematic.
  • -Micky-Micky
    edited December 2011
    I use my Sprinter 2000 only for TRD files. Works very well. A CF card is my "hdd" and it has 2 floppy disc drives.

    Did not know how to configure the other Sprinter modes. Tape in for ZX mode did not work. The manual is not very helpfull. After a reset Sprinter hangs sometimes and must be switched off and on.

    I think Sprinter is not ready. I mean the development has stopped.

    Is there anyone who knows how to configure the other Sprinter modes?


    Micky
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