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Modern LCD TV for my Spectrums - some advice needed

Alessandro GrussuAlessandro Grussu
edited May 2011 in Hardware
Having recently purchased some Spectrums for my collection, which were succesfully tested on two old and reliable CRT TV's daily used by my parents, I'd like to purchase an LCD TV to be used mostly with my new "babies".

Since the +2 and +2A I own would be used through an RGB-to-SCART cable, and one of the earlier Spectrums has been modified so that I can get an excellent picture (on CRT) with a RCA-to-SCART cable, I believe it is mandatory that this new TV should have a SCART connector.

From what I have gathered so far by browsing the WoS forum, LG TVs seem to be the best candidates, this model in particular:

http://www.twenga.it/prezzi-M1721A-BZ-LG-TV-LCD-174033-0

This is a much cheaper model from a Chinese manufacturer which also boasts LED technology. On paper it would seem also suitable for what I need (click on "Scarica la scheda tecnica" to download the technical specifications):

http://www.thesitalia.com/prodottiLed15.html

Any advice and/or feedback about these and other products is warmly welcome :)
Post edited by Alessandro Grussu on
Spectrumpedia, the most comprehensive book ever written about the Spectrum - Zankle Soft - Corrections for games incompatible with the +2A/+3 - TAP files for DivIDE/DivMMC - SetoLOAD fast tape loading scheme

Comments

  • BiNMaNBiNMaN
    edited May 2011
    well my advice (only from personal experience) would be don't by a HD set or any 16:9 set or any with a resolution of 1440x900 or 1366x768

    I have a 37" 1080p LG it does not like my +2a/b/3's through scart, toastracks and grey +2's are ok

    Goodmans 19" 1440x900 - colours bleed especially blue and any stippled effects look aweful, composite look horrible

    Bush 19" 1440x900 - the graphics look like the blitting effect: vector scaler in realspec

    For me I'd go for a 4:3 (don't seem to get them in the shops anymore) with a res of 640x480 or 1024x768. Wished I'd bought one a while ago when I had the chance, but I'd look at them and think that the resoltion was poor for a TV, not realising they were probably better for old computers and consoles.

    So I've just bought a Bang and Olufsen CRT 32" 16:9 for my retro gear, crystal clear picture and the dolby speakers are awesome I've never heard a spectrum beeper souind sooo good.
  • Zetr0Zetr0
    edited May 2011
    I have an Hitach 42" Plasma Panel.

    It has various inputs

    RGB 1,2 and 3
    RGBs (only works with Svideo/Composite converted inputs)
    Composite RCA
    Component YUV
    VGA
    HDMI
    SVideo (Y/C)
    RF

    Heres my current system setup - Click to see setup Album


    P1030054.jpg


    Systems Connected

    [SCART RGB] Sega MegaDrive / MegaCD & 32x
    [SCART RGB] Sega Saturn
    [SCART RGB] Sega Dream Cast
    [SCART RGB] PSx
    [Comp. YUV] PS2
    [Comp. YUV] PS3
    [Comp. YUV] XBox
    [Comp. YUV] XBox 360
    [DVI - HDMI] Media PC
    [Svideo Y/C] 3DO - Panosonic FZ-1

    Not in the picture is my +3e which is plumbed up to RF, I plan to test out these older systems via RGB soon. I have to admit, the set works reasonably well with 25 year old equipment via RF, however does struggle with composite signals... (artifacts on static screens) and very old equipment like the Atari 2600 VCS it just bottoms out on and cannot look a colour picture.
  • boyrobertsboyroberts
    edited May 2011
    I have a Hitachi 19" with in-built DVD for use with the Spectrum +3 and the Toastrack - connected by RGB scart. Works pretty well however sometimes have to reboot the computers a couple of times to get the correct sync.

    No joy whatsoever with the Samsung 36" in my lounge.
  • beanzbeanz
    edited May 2011
    With the composite mod my speccies work great on my 36" Visio (US). I guess it's both NTSC and PAL.
  • Alessandro GrussuAlessandro Grussu
    edited May 2011
    Update. In the meantime, I remembered my Samsung 32" LCD/LED TV came with a SCART input through a cable fixed on the back, besides composite video. I tested both my modified 48K and my +2A with the SCART cable and voila! Apart from a few horizontal misaligned lines - barely if at all noticeable if you think that the minimum viewing distance for that TV is about 1.80 meters - everything works. Picture is crisp and colors are bright, although the image obtained from the +2A is a little "cleaner" and somewhat more stable than the one coming from the 48K. Nothing to lose your sleep over, however.

    It seems that getting a good picture on modern LCD TVs from our beloved machines is something of a hit-and-miss then.
    Spectrumpedia, the most comprehensive book ever written about the Spectrum - Zankle Soft - Corrections for games incompatible with the +2A/+3 - TAP files for DivIDE/DivMMC - SetoLOAD fast tape loading scheme
  • Alessandro GrussuAlessandro Grussu
    edited May 2011
    Another update. My aforementioned TV has several color modes available, plus a custom one. I noticed that if you use any pre-set mode other than "Film", BRIGHT difference will be barely noticeable from white to green, then not noticeable at all with the other colors. Of course that applies to RGB/PERITEL-to-SCART input - I didn't try RF input, and honestly do not want to.
    Spectrumpedia, the most comprehensive book ever written about the Spectrum - Zankle Soft - Corrections for games incompatible with the +2A/+3 - TAP files for DivIDE/DivMMC - SetoLOAD fast tape loading scheme
  • MaccMacc
    edited May 2011
    I use a Samsung 15" LCD, a Sharp 15" LCD and an old 14" Bush CRT, all my speccies work with all the above, SCART and Composite with the notable exception of my +3 and the CRT, through RGB into SCART I get lots of black "speckles" across the screen, never worked it out, works fine on the LCD's
  • Alessandro GrussuAlessandro Grussu
    edited May 2011
    Thanks everybody for the feedback. I think that with the disappearing of CRT TVs it will be necessary to conduct even more researches on this subject, if we still want to actually use our original hardware.

    So far it seems the situation is not as dire as it has often been said - connecting Spectrums to modern LCD/LED TVs is possible and can in several cases give good results, especially with composite and SCART input.
    Spectrumpedia, the most comprehensive book ever written about the Spectrum - Zankle Soft - Corrections for games incompatible with the +2A/+3 - TAP files for DivIDE/DivMMC - SetoLOAD fast tape loading scheme
  • absinthe_boyabsinthe_boy
    edited May 2011
    I'd imagine it depends on how good the comb filter in your TV is.
  • Alessandro GrussuAlessandro Grussu
    edited May 2011
    absinthe_boy wrote: »
    I'd imagine it depends on how good the comb filter in your TV is.
    I don't know buddy, I didn't even know what a comb filter was until you named it :) Certainly it is necessary to try and test several different TV sets since there seems to be so much variety in results.
    Spectrumpedia, the most comprehensive book ever written about the Spectrum - Zankle Soft - Corrections for games incompatible with the +2A/+3 - TAP files for DivIDE/DivMMC - SetoLOAD fast tape loading scheme
  • guesserguesser
    edited May 2011
    absinthe_boy wrote: »
    I'd imagine it depends on how good the comb filter in your TV is.

    If you build an s-video output for the speccy then the comb filter won't be used.
    My rubbish website including the redrawn Amstrad schematics and the Sinclair Wiki.
  • WinstonWinston
    edited May 2011
    You might not be entirely surprised to discover that the "toastrack" 128K machines are the most fiddly to get working with an LCD. Never had any trouble with a +3 or composite modded 48K (despite the 48K's out of spec composite sync). However I've even had problems with a toastrack and a CRT once or twice.

    I really ought to look at the timings of the sync signal on the 128K+, it looked all sync related judging by what was happening on the screen. (I wouldn't put it past being a failing component).
  • absinthe_boyabsinthe_boy
    edited May 2011
    The comb filter is in all flat screen TV's...its function is to smooth out the differences between the analogue (PAL/NTSC) signal and the screen's native resolution. Its only an issue with analogue video inputs (RF, Phono, SCART, S-Video) and not with HDMI or even VGA. You'll sometimes see 'combing' appearing on the screen in complex parts of the picture when viewing DVD's or or even television material via SCART or composite video. The TV's comb filter is designed to make these look acceptble.

    Cheaper TV's (store's own brand LCDs for example) tend to perform more poorly than the more expensive brands but this isn't always the case. These TV's are designed for modern cable TV signals, DVD's and suchlike...not for 80's computers. So undoubtedly some will handle the signals from the computers better than others.

    One option might be to obtain a VGA adaptor for your speccy, as virtually all flat TV's have a VGA input.
  • guesserguesser
    edited May 2011
    absinthe_boy wrote: »
    You'll sometimes see 'combing' appearing on the screen in complex parts of the picture when viewing DVD's or or even television material via SCART or composite video.

    The name comb filter has nothing to do with any display artefacts. A comb filter is used in separating and demodulating the PAL or NTSC colour information from an RF or Composite signal. When using an S-Video or RGB SCART input the comb filter is bypassed.
    My rubbish website including the redrawn Amstrad schematics and the Sinclair Wiki.
  • Alessandro GrussuAlessandro Grussu
    edited May 2011
    guesser wrote: »
    The name comb filter has nothing to do with any display artefacts. A comb filter is used in separating and demodulating the PAL or NTSC colour information from an RF or Composite signal. When using an S-Video or RGB SCART input the comb filter is bypassed.
    That's precisely my case - I'm using an RGB-SCART connection most of the time.
    Spectrumpedia, the most comprehensive book ever written about the Spectrum - Zankle Soft - Corrections for games incompatible with the +2A/+3 - TAP files for DivIDE/DivMMC - SetoLOAD fast tape loading scheme
  • BiNMaNBiNMaN
    edited May 2011
    Winston wrote: »
    You might not be entirely surprised to discover that the "toastrack" 128K machines are the most fiddly to get working with an LCD. Never had any trouble with a +3.

    for me it has always been the other way around!
  • absinthe_boyabsinthe_boy
    edited May 2011
    guesser wrote: »
    The name comb filter has nothing to do with any display artefacts. A comb filter is used in separating and demodulating the PAL or NTSC colour information from an RF or Composite signal. When using an S-Video or RGB SCART input the comb filter is bypassed.

    It is most certainly not bypassed in my LCD TV, which is made by AOC. Any PAL or SECAM input, be it RF, composite, SCART or S-Video uses the comb filter because I can manually turn it on and off. Without the comb filter things look pretty dire when playing VHS tapes. And yes, I have a fully wired RGB SCART.

    I guess YMMV.
  • guesserguesser
    edited May 2011
    absinthe_boy wrote: »
    Any PAL or SECAM input, be it RF, composite, SCART or S-Video uses the comb filter because I can manually turn it on and off. Without the comb filter things look pretty dire when playing VHS tapes.

    Well a VHS tape has to separate the the colour and brightness so needs a comb filter. There's no such thing as an RGB VHS tape...
    absinthe_boy wrote: »
    I have a fully wired RGB SCART.
    RGB SCART is neither PAL or SECAM... it's RGB. An RGB signal doesn't have a colour sub-carrier to filter so it doesn't need to pass through a comb filter.
    My rubbish website including the redrawn Amstrad schematics and the Sinclair Wiki.
  • absinthe_boyabsinthe_boy
    edited May 2011
    guesser wrote: »
    Well a VHS tape has to separate the the colour and brightness so needs a comb filter. There's no such thing as an RGB VHS tape...


    RGB SCART is neither PAL or SECAM... it's RGB. An RGB signal doesn't have a colour sub-carrier to filter so it doesn't need to pass through a comb filter.


    Where did I say there was any such thing as an RGB VHS tape. I said my VHS machine has a fully wired RGB SCART output.

    The RGB is transmitted as 625-line 50Hz analogue signal and recombined inside the TV to what is effectively a PAL signal with all the attendant dot crawl and artifacts. Sure it's better than composite or RF but it still has issues when displaying on an LCD or plasma screen or a projector.

    Ergo my TV most certainly has a comb filter which may be manually switched on and off on all inputs bar the HDMI, component video and VGA....it is present (and makes a difference) on th RF, SCART, composite and even S-video inputs - though I doubt it makes much difference to the latter.

    YMMV. Perhaps some TV's don't bother with comb filters on anything other than the RF. I only know for sure about the TV I own and use.

    If I were to attach a Spectrum to a modern TV I'd seriously look at VGA.
  • guesserguesser
    edited May 2011
    absinthe_boy wrote: »
    Where did I say there was any such thing as an RGB VHS tape. I said my VHS machine has a fully wired RGB SCART output.

    The RGB is transmitted as 625-line 50Hz analogue signal and recombined inside the TV to what is effectively a PAL signal with all the attendant dot crawl and artifacts.
    If it's transmitted as seperate R,G and B signals then it's not a PAL signal.

    I refuse to believe that the TV converts an RGB input to PAL then back to RGB again, that would defy the object of having an RGB input.
    absinthe_boy wrote: »
    Ergo my TV most certainly has a comb filter which may be manually switched on and off on all inputs bar the HDMI, component video and VGA....it is present (and makes a difference) on th RF, SCART, composite and even S-video inputs - though I doubt it makes much difference to the latter.

    The VCR is probably sending a composite signal over the SCART cable. If it is genuinely outputting an RGB signal then the filters are in the VCR not the TV.
    My rubbish website including the redrawn Amstrad schematics and the Sinclair Wiki.
  • absinthe_boyabsinthe_boy
    edited May 2011
    guesser wrote: »

    The VCR is probably sending a composite signal over the SCART cable. If it is genuinely outputting an RGB signal then the filters are in the VCR not the TV.

    I can assure you it is outputting an RGB signal.

    But I think we are just gyrating in circular orbit....tit for tat.
  • guesserguesser
    edited May 2011
    absinthe_boy wrote: »
    I can assure you it is outputting an RGB signal.

    in that case I can assure *you* that it isn't going through the PAL decoder circuits in the TV :p
    My rubbish website including the redrawn Amstrad schematics and the Sinclair Wiki.
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