Actually establishing copyrights to many games in most professional way could be a nightmare.
Companies joined, split up, were bought up or went bankrupt. People married and divorced, died so other people iheritted from them etc. All these actions involve property (and thus copyrights) coming from one person to another. And many of the original documents are no longer existing.
As there isn't any real money involved,nobody cares to go through all of it.
I would have thought that there is a simple solution for at least some of the titles: offer a payment (one off only, or large first payment followed by say quarterly on-going % payments) for a new agreement that supersedes all existing agreements for that title. With no money paid in cases of dispute until a copy of the original (and maybe copies of subsequent agreements) has/have been provided.
This would encourage copyright holders to get their act together in finding their paperwork.
Because new copyright agreements would apply once the existing agreements have been surrendered, the payment system could be the same for all the new copyright agreements, making it a hell of a lot easier to run.
Now, about the speculation on the 1000 games. They have not said what games will be included (and at this stage I would not expect them to). So if the copyright holders don't play ball, I suppose the Vega could end up with 1000 newly written BASIC games :lol:
! Standby alert !
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb!
Looking forward to summer in Somerset later in the year :)
So if the copyright holders don't play ball, I suppose the Vega could end up with 1000 newly written BASIC games :lol:
The Vega team could ask for tips from the manufacturer of the "1000 games collection" CD-ROMs for the PC. Heck, there's even a 10,000 games collection out there! :o (?7.52 from Amazon, 2.5 stars)
I'd argue if they had went with a full ASIC implementation of a Spectrum with the requisite ports for expanding it's usability so people can actually take advantage of it's accurate emulation, they'd have easily gotten double in their crowdfunding campaign. And people would have been much more receptive to it.
I'd argue that they would not. Only a few hundred people in the world care about whether it's an ASIC or ARM core, and only a few hundred people in the world care about timing perfection. The remaining tens of thousands just want a handheld console they can pick up and casually play a few games on, and they couldn't give a damn about what's inside the plastic case. The only people who are not being receptive to it are the few hundred purists, who (commerically speaking) don't matter.
If you strongly believe that people really care (enough people to fund a project) talk to the ZX Uno team and propose crowd funding an ASIC version. It's already FPGA proven and probably won't take much more to turn into an ASIC.
In less than a week since the Vega announcement was made, the following has happened:
1) The words Sinclair and ZX Spectrum have been repeatedly seen across news sites and social media, all in a very positive way.
2) Ole Sir Clive has been dusted off and gave a uber rare interview to the BBC, in which, he acknowledged that the Spectrum would be used to play games and that was fine.
3) The Spectrum community rallied round and raised over 100K in a day for a new Speccy related innovation.
Maybe, I'm viewing all this through rose tinted glasses, but I don't see any negative aspects of this project. Personally, the Vega price point is too expensive (right now) for me, but I appreciate this is not the case for others.
I wish the project team success in the endeavours.
It is a little annoying how much they hound you once they have your money, at least once a day and sometimes more, asking for you to fund more and more.
I am a little surprised by the fact that as collectors we will usually collect anything Sinclair Spectrum related, after waiting all of these years for a new boost to our collections and a new surge of interest by the public, many Spectrum collectors are saying that they are not interested. Yet I bet there will be no shortage of those same people who will buy a unit on the secondary market, and pay twice the price. There were only 1000 numbered units in the first run, and they went in two days.
Every time I read that the oldest person in the world has died, I have to do a quick check to see it isn't ME..........
A great idea. May turn out to be a white elephant, but at ?100 it's not the worst mistake anyone would ever make; and it's a unique piece of Speccy memorabilia.
Persoanlly I can't see how they are going to get agreements for releasing 1,000 games. I can imagine that the IP rights for many will be (at best) muddled, and many contracys and agreements will have been torn up or lost in the mists of time. Do rights to movie/tv tie-ins like with the programmer? Or the publisher? Or the film company? And as many have recognisable actors in them even require consent from them as well? WOS has done an admirable job in gaining consent (as far as is realistically possible), and there have been numerous C64, NES, VCS collections of games built into joysticks/consoles commercially released, so it is possible.
The publishers could do worse than speak to the guys at WOS for their input , and it remains to be seen if the games will be fully compatible with only 4 key + direction games.
Or they just produce a version with WiFi and an interface to WoS or the TOSEC archive.
this ^^^^
Dear customer
Thank you for purchasing the new ZX Spectrum Vega after connecting to your TV , keep the DOWN key pressed when you turn it on, this will bring up infoseek* that will give you access to the 1000 games free of charge.
Thank you for purchasing the new ZX Spectrum Vega after connecting to your TV , keep the DOWN key pressed when you turn it on, this will bring up infoseek* that will give you access to the 1000 games free of charge.
*Internet connection required
problem solved :)
These puiblishers/programmers have agreed for Speccy gamers to play old games again. They may not agree for a company looking to make money from them to do the same!
Regarding my last post, the advert for the machine shows several games in the background. At least 2 of the games won't play properly with 4 buttons.
A great idea. May turn out to be a white elephant, but at ?100 it's not the worst mistake anyone would ever make; and it's a unique piece of Speccy memorabilia.
Persoanlly I can't see how they are going to get agreements for releasing 1,000 games. I can imagine that the IP rights for many will be (at best) muddled, and many contracys and agreements will have been torn up or lost in the mists of time. Do rights to movie/tv tie-ins like with the programmer? Or the publisher? Or the film company? And as many have recognisable actors in them even require consent from them as well? WOS has done an admirable job in gaining consent (as far as is realistically possible), and there have been numerous C64, NES, VCS collections of games built into joysticks/consoles commercially released, so it is possible.
The publishers could do worse than speak to the guys at WOS for their input , and it remains to be seen if the games will be fully compatible with only 4 key + direction games.
You mean I have just paid ?100 for Stonkers !
Every time I read that the oldest person in the world has died, I have to do a quick check to see it isn't ME..........
In less than a week since the Vega announcement was made, the following has happened:
1) The words Sinclair and ZX Spectrum have been repeatedly seen across news sites and social media, all in a very positive way.
2) Ole Sir Clive has been dusted off and gave a uber rare interview to the BBC, in which, he acknowledged that the Spectrum would be used to play games and that was fine.
3) The Spectrum community rallied round and raised over 100K in a day for a new Speccy related innovation.
Maybe, I'm viewing all this through rose tinted glasses, but I don't see any negative aspects of this project. Personally, the Vega price point is too expensive (right now) for me, but I appreciate this is not the case for others.
I wish the project team success in the endeavours.
It would be positive IF they were recognising the contribution of the many people and companies that made the games.
Without proper licenses it is no better than those old CDs that gathered thousands of emulation images.
I am a little surprised by the fact that as collectors we will usually collect anything Sinclair Spectrum related, after waiting all of these years for a new boost to our collections and a new surge of interest by the public, many Spectrum collectors are saying that they are not interested.
By and large, collectors are not interested in playing Spectrum games - they'd rather keep them to themselves and not break the seals/cellophane etc. They're not Spectrum enthusiasts, they're sad broken old men indulging their OCD personality disorders.
Why is everyone now assuming that Vega will distribute games illegally, except in cases where IP owners explicitly forbid it?
They never said this.
I think they made a mistake announcing 1,000 games. Even if they manage to obtain lots of permissions, it's unlikely it will include most games that casual players expect.
Why is everyone now assuming that Vega will distribute games illegally, except in cases where IP owners explicitly forbid it?
They never said this.
I think they made a mistake announcing 1,000 games. Even if they manage to obtain lots of permissions, it's unlikely it will include most games that casual players expect.
But I doubt piracy is part of their plan.
I think you're making presumptions here.
No-one said piracy was part of their plan but more likely naivety on the part of the developers.
Lessons should have been learnt from the Elite fiasco but obviously haven't.
And I suspect (I could be wrong) they plan to publish the games without seeking permission beforehand. Because seeking permission would be an enormous job. Unfortunately selling these games without permission would be commercial piracy which is a criminal offence.
No-one said piracy was part of their plan but more likely naivety on the part of the developers.
Lessons should have been learnt from the Elite fiasco but obviously haven't.
I agree. We're questioning the viability of getting permission for 1000 different games. We're (or at least I) am also questioning whether all those games will be compatible with 4/5 buttons. Eg Ant Attack in their advert uses 13 keys - so how is anyone going to be able to play that?
These puiblishers/programmers have agreed for Speccy gamers to play old games again. They may not agree for a company looking to make money from them to do the same!
In those circumstances, it's no different to the other commercially available speccy emulators that allow you to play games from WoS or elsewhere.
We're (or at least I) am also questioning whether all those games will be compatible with 4/5 buttons. Eg Ant Attack in their advert uses 13 keys - so how is anyone going to be able to play that?
Switchable keymaps. By pressing the "R" (middle) button, the player could switch to a secondary keymap, which could implement the controls needed to access the 4 viewing angles, for example.
Most of the time, the D-Pad & 4 buttons would be enough to play the game, although it would be a pain in the arse having to use "Down" on the D-Pad to make your character jump. Maybe that could be used for one of the grenade keys instead.
ANT ATTACK CONTROLS:
0, P, ENTER, SPACE - 4 view angles
SYMBOL - Rotate
SHIFT clockwise
M - Rotate anti
clockwise
V - Forewards
C - Jump
S D F G - Throw grenade
Short-long distances
1 - Last resort,
returns you to
the city gate
In those circumstances, it's no different to the other commercially available speccy emulators that allow you to play games from WoS or elsewhere.
It is in respect that the 1000 games are to be included on a flash chip inside the machine. Most emulators are just that, they don't come bundled with games.
Switchable keymaps. By pressing the "R" (middle) button, the player could switch to a secondary keymap, which could implement the controls needed to access the 4 viewing angles, for example.
Most of the time, the D-Pad & 4 buttons would be enough to play the game, although it would be a pain in the arse having to use "Down" on the D-Pad to make your character jump. Maybe that could be used for one of the grenade keys instead.
ANT ATTACK CONTROLS:
0, P, ENTER, SPACE - 4 view angles
SYMBOL - Rotate
SHIFT clockwise
M - Rotate anti
clockwise
V - Forewards
C - Jump
S D F G - Throw grenade
Short-long distances
1 - Last resort,
returns you to
the city gate
Yeah, if the machine allows you to do that it would be possible to play - and as you say most Speccy games would be ok with this set-up.
It is in respect that the 1000 games are to be included on a flash chip inside the machine. Most emulators are just that, they don't come bundled with games.
Yeah, if the machine allows you to do that it would be possible to play - and as you say most Speccy games would be ok with this set-up.
That's my wishful guess about what they'll do.
The Vega will definitely have an onscreen keyboard, so it's possible that the player will just be expected to use that for their secondary controls. That'd be pretty awful.
It is in respect that the 1000 games are to be included on a flash chip inside the machine. Most emulators are just that, they don't come bundled with games.
Yeah the problem is the product's value depends in part on the games included. This is a commercial product making money from the IP of commercially released software.
The software emulation thing is different. Much (but not all) sw on WOS is being made available with copyright holders' permission, as far as that can be determined, but that permission is extended to WOS only. They do this as a favour to the community and because their efforts are not being exploited for profit and would otherwise be forgotten. Most emulators are free so there is no profit being made there; in the cases where emulators are not free, it is clear the payment is for the emulator itself as free alternatives are available.
I also think 1000 games being reached with permissions might be difficult and I'm wondering if they were considering to lie in the same grey-area limbo as some of WOS is sitting in. For some sw, it's not known who owns the IP and in some cases the original IP holders cannot be found/contacted. WOS continues to make those sw titles available for download unless they are contacted by IP holders or they eventually manage to find the IP holders themselves to gain (or not) permission. It's the not-for-profit, unlikely value of the IP, and active attempts at finding IP holders that WOS depends on and makes it different from warez sites.
If they were thinking of making donations to charity in lieu of being able to find IP holders on a for-profit device that depends in some way on that IP for its value, that might be suspect ground. I don't know if the law says anything about abandoned IP if someone made reasonable efforts to locate IP holders.
Anyway I sympathize with jpickford -- I don't think it's fair to tell developers they must donate to charity or withdraw permission. I think I would go another way -- set aside x% of sales to software IP and divide that among the number of games included. Write a cheque for each game to the IP holder. I doubt it will be a lot but at least the IP holders can do what they want with the cash.
The Vega will definitely have an onscreen keyboard, so it's possible that the player will just be expected to use that for their secondary controls. That'd be pretty awful.
This is my only concern. I assume this is also why we have seen VCS,Colecovision, NES,MD, C64 etc.etc. emualtion consoles/controllers , but never a Speccy one . Because all the other machines automatically acknowledge the fact that the game is joystick controlled and with the exception of the C64 none of the other machines need more buttons than are supplied on the controllers. I had a C64 stick , and the games chosen were those that can be solely played with a stick.
Speccy games even in emulation require the set-up of a specific joystick interface and (in quite a few cases) the use of keys. If the Vega is to work effectively it's going to require a redifinable key-map , thus requiring a bit more thought on the player's behalf than is usually the case with the other machines I've mentioned. It's far from insurpassable though, and anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of emulation will be able to suss it out.
John has a vested interest, so may well be taking that view but that certainly wasn't what merman said.
I think it's about fairness more than anything. I have zero expectation of ever earning money from old speccy games. What I strongly object to is the idea that someone can sell these games for profit without compensating the original authors. I'm much happier with the free distribution of these games on WoS.
Plundering the WoS archive for profit isn't ethical. Getting permission for each game is fine but (I believe) more or less impossible.
Comments
Companies joined, split up, were bought up or went bankrupt. People married and divorced, died so other people iheritted from them etc. All these actions involve property (and thus copyrights) coming from one person to another. And many of the original documents are no longer existing.
As there isn't any real money involved,nobody cares to go through all of it.
This would encourage copyright holders to get their act together in finding their paperwork.
Because new copyright agreements would apply once the existing agreements have been surrendered, the payment system could be the same for all the new copyright agreements, making it a hell of a lot easier to run.
Now, about the speculation on the 1000 games. They have not said what games will be included (and at this stage I would not expect them to). So if the copyright holders don't play ball, I suppose the Vega could end up with 1000 newly written BASIC games :lol:
Mark
Repair Guides. Spanish Hardware site.
WoS - can't download? Info here...
former Meulie Spectrum Archive but no longer available :-(
Spectranet: the TNFS directory thread
! Standby alert !
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb!
Looking forward to summer in Somerset later in the year :)
The Vega team could ask for tips from the manufacturer of the "1000 games collection" CD-ROMs for the PC. Heck, there's even a 10,000 games collection out there! :o (?7.52 from Amazon, 2.5 stars)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/10-000-Games-PC-CD/dp/B003TLNM16/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417945065&sr=8-1&keywords=1000+pc+games
Oi! I'm only 39, you know... oh, wait :(
I'd argue that they would not. Only a few hundred people in the world care about whether it's an ASIC or ARM core, and only a few hundred people in the world care about timing perfection. The remaining tens of thousands just want a handheld console they can pick up and casually play a few games on, and they couldn't give a damn about what's inside the plastic case. The only people who are not being receptive to it are the few hundred purists, who (commerically speaking) don't matter.
If you strongly believe that people really care (enough people to fund a project) talk to the ZX Uno team and propose crowd funding an ASIC version. It's already FPGA proven and probably won't take much more to turn into an ASIC.
1) The words Sinclair and ZX Spectrum have been repeatedly seen across news sites and social media, all in a very positive way.
2) Ole Sir Clive has been dusted off and gave a uber rare interview to the BBC, in which, he acknowledged that the Spectrum would be used to play games and that was fine.
3) The Spectrum community rallied round and raised over 100K in a day for a new Speccy related innovation.
Maybe, I'm viewing all this through rose tinted glasses, but I don't see any negative aspects of this project. Personally, the Vega price point is too expensive (right now) for me, but I appreciate this is not the case for others.
I wish the project team success in the endeavours.
I am a little surprised by the fact that as collectors we will usually collect anything Sinclair Spectrum related, after waiting all of these years for a new boost to our collections and a new surge of interest by the public, many Spectrum collectors are saying that they are not interested. Yet I bet there will be no shortage of those same people who will buy a unit on the secondary market, and pay twice the price. There were only 1000 numbered units in the first run, and they went in two days.
Persoanlly I can't see how they are going to get agreements for releasing 1,000 games. I can imagine that the IP rights for many will be (at best) muddled, and many contracys and agreements will have been torn up or lost in the mists of time. Do rights to movie/tv tie-ins like with the programmer? Or the publisher? Or the film company? And as many have recognisable actors in them even require consent from them as well? WOS has done an admirable job in gaining consent (as far as is realistically possible), and there have been numerous C64, NES, VCS collections of games built into joysticks/consoles commercially released, so it is possible.
The publishers could do worse than speak to the guys at WOS for their input , and it remains to be seen if the games will be fully compatible with only 4 key + direction games.
this ^^^^
Dear customer
Thank you for purchasing the new ZX Spectrum Vega after connecting to your TV , keep the DOWN key pressed when you turn it on, this will bring up infoseek* that will give you access to the 1000 games free of charge.
*Internet connection required
problem solved :)
These puiblishers/programmers have agreed for Speccy gamers to play old games again. They may not agree for a company looking to make money from them to do the same!
Regarding my last post, the advert for the machine shows several games in the background. At least 2 of the games won't play properly with 4 buttons.
You mean I have just paid ?100 for Stonkers !
:lol: That and Make A Chip!
It would be positive IF they were recognising the contribution of the many people and companies that made the games.
Without proper licenses it is no better than those old CDs that gathered thousands of emulation images.
By and large, collectors are not interested in playing Spectrum games - they'd rather keep them to themselves and not break the seals/cellophane etc. They're not Spectrum enthusiasts, they're sad broken old men indulging their OCD personality disorders.
D.
Why is everyone now assuming that Vega will distribute games illegally, except in cases where IP owners explicitly forbid it?
They never said this.
I think they made a mistake announcing 1,000 games. Even if they manage to obtain lots of permissions, it's unlikely it will include most games that casual players expect.
But I doubt piracy is part of their plan.
No-one said piracy was part of their plan but more likely naivety on the part of the developers.
Lessons should have been learnt from the Elite fiasco but obviously haven't.
Bizarre. I was quite sure that's exactly what people were saying:
I agree. We're questioning the viability of getting permission for 1000 different games. We're (or at least I) am also questioning whether all those games will be compatible with 4/5 buttons. Eg Ant Attack in their advert uses 13 keys - so how is anyone going to be able to play that?
Switchable keymaps. By pressing the "R" (middle) button, the player could switch to a secondary keymap, which could implement the controls needed to access the 4 viewing angles, for example.
Most of the time, the D-Pad & 4 buttons would be enough to play the game, although it would be a pain in the arse having to use "Down" on the D-Pad to make your character jump. Maybe that could be used for one of the grenade keys instead.
ANT ATTACK CONTROLS:
0, P, ENTER, SPACE - 4 view angles
SYMBOL - Rotate
SHIFT clockwise
M - Rotate anti
clockwise
V - Forewards
C - Jump
S D F G - Throw grenade
Short-long distances
1 - Last resort,
returns you to
the city gate
It is in respect that the 1000 games are to be included on a flash chip inside the machine. Most emulators are just that, they don't come bundled with games.
Yeah, if the machine allows you to do that it would be possible to play - and as you say most Speccy games would be ok with this set-up.
That's my wishful guess about what they'll do.
The Vega will definitely have an onscreen keyboard, so it's possible that the player will just be expected to use that for their secondary controls. That'd be pretty awful.
Sorry, yeah you're right that would be a case if it was simply a link to WOS.
Yeah the problem is the product's value depends in part on the games included. This is a commercial product making money from the IP of commercially released software.
The software emulation thing is different. Much (but not all) sw on WOS is being made available with copyright holders' permission, as far as that can be determined, but that permission is extended to WOS only. They do this as a favour to the community and because their efforts are not being exploited for profit and would otherwise be forgotten. Most emulators are free so there is no profit being made there; in the cases where emulators are not free, it is clear the payment is for the emulator itself as free alternatives are available.
I also think 1000 games being reached with permissions might be difficult and I'm wondering if they were considering to lie in the same grey-area limbo as some of WOS is sitting in. For some sw, it's not known who owns the IP and in some cases the original IP holders cannot be found/contacted. WOS continues to make those sw titles available for download unless they are contacted by IP holders or they eventually manage to find the IP holders themselves to gain (or not) permission. It's the not-for-profit, unlikely value of the IP, and active attempts at finding IP holders that WOS depends on and makes it different from warez sites.
If they were thinking of making donations to charity in lieu of being able to find IP holders on a for-profit device that depends in some way on that IP for its value, that might be suspect ground. I don't know if the law says anything about abandoned IP if someone made reasonable efforts to locate IP holders.
Anyway I sympathize with jpickford -- I don't think it's fair to tell developers they must donate to charity or withdraw permission. I think I would go another way -- set aside x% of sales to software IP and divide that among the number of games included. Write a cheque for each game to the IP holder. I doubt it will be a lot but at least the IP holders can do what they want with the cash.
Write games in C using Z88DK and SP1
This is my only concern. I assume this is also why we have seen VCS,Colecovision, NES,MD, C64 etc.etc. emualtion consoles/controllers , but never a Speccy one . Because all the other machines automatically acknowledge the fact that the game is joystick controlled and with the exception of the C64 none of the other machines need more buttons than are supplied on the controllers. I had a C64 stick , and the games chosen were those that can be solely played with a stick.
Speccy games even in emulation require the set-up of a specific joystick interface and (in quite a few cases) the use of keys. If the Vega is to work effectively it's going to require a redifinable key-map , thus requiring a bit more thought on the player's behalf than is usually the case with the other machines I've mentioned. It's far from insurpassable though, and anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of emulation will be able to suss it out.
John has a vested interest, so may well be taking that view but that certainly wasn't what merman said.
I think it's about fairness more than anything. I have zero expectation of ever earning money from old speccy games. What I strongly object to is the idea that someone can sell these games for profit without compensating the original authors. I'm much happier with the free distribution of these games on WoS.
Plundering the WoS archive for profit isn't ethical. Getting permission for each game is fine but (I believe) more or less impossible.