On 2005-06-11 18:29, alban lusitanae wrote:
Right now, I give cheers for Ocean and all the other guys who take the clever approach: they let the ancient games go
Ocean haven't done that. The absence of any denial isn't evidence of acceptance.
Right now, I give cheers for Ocean and all the other guys who take the clever approach: they let the ancient games go, and if they want to make sequels or sell CDs or revamp the titles afterwards in consoles and stuff they still do it leaving the retrogames free. Why? That way, they don't get retrogamers pissed and still moraly rip us off with new releases later, because they acted in goo approach.
As has been previously mentioned, neither Ocean nor Infogrames/Atari (who bought Ocean around 1997 or so) have given permission for the free download of their games. In addition, even if they had, many of Ocean's games were coin-op or film licenses and as far as I'm aware, no coin-op or film company has allowed Speccy games based on their products to be freely distributed.
Bottom line is: would I buy a code masters game for a mobile? NO! Would I buy, for instance, back to skool for mobile even if I have at home? HELL YES!
Great. I'm sure the Codies really care.
And I will NEVER again speak of ANY game, because they will see interest and attempt to cash in. :evil: I have a full download of the WoS archive so... only taken out the newer denied games. Don't speak of games anymore. I warn you: there are company spies on WoS, just waiting to know...
You're joking, right? I mean, seriously Alban - you don't think that's just a teeny bit paranoid?
If you were being completely honest and on the level you'd delete at least 75% and possibly nearer 90% of the WOS archive you downloaded - cos that's the proportion that hasn't had explicit permissions from the recognised IP holder given. I mean, if someone robs my house and gets caught, they can't turn round and say to the police "but they didn't have a big sign up saying 'Please don't steal my stuff' so I thought I had their permission."
[ This Message was edited by: Malc74 on 2005-06-12 03:20 ]
I do have the gamne archive and the denied games are but a small piece of the whole, so I have no problems deleting them.
IMHO it's the same thing saying to someone "You can look around and finding the games" and "Here's the site:" because you actively pushing the search. I have dissuaded many people from doing it. Those who don't are just helping the sites which don't care. But hey, the actions always stay with those who write them. And I don't have to point any names. Just read the posts and you will see who is always saying "you can get the games elsewhere there is no problem about it" or "If you look well enough you will find them" and those, like me, who rant about the growing destruction of the retroscene by those who not only don't help it, but deny everything and if that was the great almighty solution.
About the spies: I'm not paranoid, I live in the real world. They exist and they are paid to be around. It seems there are other people who live in dreamworlds but I'm not one of them.
And I feel troubled by the fact that it started a time ago a strange thing: I never saw so many people saying this site is as illegal as other sites. Well, if that's the truth, why bother? Just erase it and get the archive somewhere else in a dark corner of the net. Because that's what I think everyone is aiming at, so that it becomes easier to get what they want.
I won't stop to say what I want, and turning the mirror to people, because there are lots who didn't even belong here. Be in a place and only criticizing? That's helping alright... sheeeeesh
On 2005-06-12 03:19, Malc74 wrote:
I mean, if someone robs my house and gets caught, they can't turn round and say to the police "but they didn't have a big sign up saying 'Please don't steal my stuff' so I thought I had their permission."
now theres an idea :)
Professional Mel-the-Bell Simulator................"So realistic, I found myself reaching for the Kleenex King-Size!" - Richard Darling
On 2005-06-12 19:17, alban lusitanae wrote:
And I feel troubled by the fact that it started a time ago a strange thing: I never saw so many people saying this site is as illegal as other sites. Well, if that's the truth, why bother? Just erase it and get the archive somewhere else in a dark corner of the net.
Because Martijn, the WOS team, and all those who support the site one way or another want to do right by everybody - including the guys who actually wrote and published the games.
We also want a fun and useful website that is easily discoverable by anyone, and without having to search through malware-infected warez websites to find it.
Is that so hard to understand?
As you say, there are "renegade" sites out there carrying denied games. You won't find them publicised by the reputable websites in the community, so you really hardly hear of them.
The bottom line is webmasters and supporters doing the right thing - if you don't like that, then go elsewhere.
Nick, read again. I'm all FOR WoS!
What's irritating is seeing everyone stating WoS is as an illegal site (and we are as illegal people) as other sites (and people)
When did anyone say that WoS was an illegal site? Apart from that gimp Gamestage, I can't imagine anyone saying something as stupid and ill-informed as that.
World of Spectrum is possibly the only completely legal site on the 'net dedicated to emulation and the old computer scene.
On 2005-06-12 21:24, alban lusitanae wrote:
Nick, read again. I'm all FOR WoS!
What's irritating is seeing everyone stating WoS is as an illegal site (and we are as illegal people) as other sites (and people)
Name one person who has said WOS is an illegal site.
On 2005-06-12 19:17, alban lusitanae wrote:
I do have the gamne archive and the denied games are but a small piece of the whole, so I have no problems deleting them.
Good for you, but why do you continue to ignore the fact that a huge proportion of the rest of the archive has no legally enforceable distribution permission whatsoever - delete those as well, then you can lecture us all about morality and doing the right thing.
IMHO it's the same thing saying to someone "You can look around and finding the games" and "Here's the site:" because you actively pushing the search. I have dissuaded many people from doing it. Those who don't are just helping the sites which don't care. But hey, the actions always stay with those who write them. And I don't have to point any names. Just read the posts and you will see who is always saying "you can get the games elsewhere there is no problem about it" or "If you look well enough you will find them" and those, like me, who rant about the growing destruction of the retroscene by those who not only don't help it, but deny everything and if that was the great almighty solution.
You're such a knight in shining armour. It still doesn't detract from the fact that the vast majority of the archive you downloaded doesn't have permission from the recognised IP holder to be distributed. Delete them, then come back and lecture us.
About the spies: I'm not paranoid, I live in the real world. They exist and they are paid to be around. It seems there are other people who live in dreamworlds but I'm not one of them.
I think you're watching too many X-Files reruns.
And I feel troubled by the fact that it started a time ago a strange thing: I never saw so many people saying this site is as illegal as other sites. Well, if that's the truth, why bother? Just erase it and get the archive somewhere else in a dark corner of the net. Because that's what I think everyone is aiming at, so that it becomes easier to get what they want.
This site is different from many other sites in that Martijn and others actively seek out companies/programmers/copyright holders and ask that they give permission for free distribution of their games. However, that doesn't mean that just because Jon Ritman says "sure, I give permission" that we can all freely download Head Over Heels or Batman with a clear conscience. The fact of the matter is that neither Atari (who presumably now own all the old Ocean IP) or DC Comics (who own the Batman rights) have given permission for free download of said games. Unless Jon Ritman had a very lucrative contract in which the rights to the Speccy versions of his games lapsed back to him after a certain number of years then whether he gives permission or not is entirely irrelevant. At the moment, many games on WOS are available for download based either on permission from programmers/individuals who probably don't own the rights or because companies/individuals who were contacted never replied. That's hardly 100% legal now, is it?
I won't stop to say what I want, and turning the mirror to people, because there are lots who didn't even belong here. Be in a place and only criticizing? That's helping alright... sheeeeesh
So let's turn the mirror on you, Mr Moral Guardian. Can you honestly say you have a right to have most of that archive on your computer? Do you own the games? Can you prove beyond reasonable doubt that the recognised IP holder has given permission for free distribution of every game? Once you've sorted all that out, then you can come back and lecture the rest of us.
(Blimey - that's probably my longest post ever! And my 600th as well!)
[ This Message was edited by: Malc74 on 2005-06-13 05:34 ]
Who was the person who gave that totally over the top post about never mentioning Odin games ever again because they denied their games ? Sure it was Alban.
He surely does come up with some great OTT posts !
And I stick by that post PSP. Don't worry about it.
Again, if WoS is trying to get the retroscene in the most legal manner, as I said and mantain it does, then people denying distribution (although yes they have ALL THE RIGHT IN THE UNIVERSE TO DO SO) are not helping and, IMHO, not taking the clever approach. I may be wrong in this radical and, I admit, not very friendly attitude, but it gets on my nerves that only those who try to do the legal and honest thing become targets, while others live happily in piracy everywhere, damaging us and the retroscene in general. That's my opinion, a heated one, maybe unfriendly one, and less-than-diplomatic, but yes, I feel strongly about this and I appologize to those who view things differently, but that is the way I think and mantain my position.
At least I'm not an hipocrite and coward, and stand for what I believe in.
On 2005-06-13 16:36, alban lusitanae wrote:
And I stick by that post PSP. Don't worry about it.
Again, if WoS is trying to get the retroscene in the most legal manner, as I said and mantain it does, then people denying distribution (although yes they have ALL THE RIGHT IN THE UNIVERSE TO DO SO) are not helping and, IMHO, not taking the clever approach. I may be wrong in this radical and, I admit, not very friendly attitude, but it gets on my nerves that only those who try to do the legal and honest thing become targets, while others live happily in piracy everywhere, damaging us and the retroscene in general. That's my opinion, a heated one, maybe unfriendly one, and less-than-diplomatic, but yes, I feel strongly about this and I appologize to those who view things differently, but that is the way I think and mantain my position.
At least I'm not an hipocrite and coward, and stand for what I believe in.
So I presume that you've now deleted all of the games in your copy of the archive which don't have explicit distribution permission from the recognised IP holder?
Because until you do that you are a hypocrite, Alban.
On 2005-06-13 16:36, alban lusitanae wrote:
people denying distribution (although yes they have ALL THE RIGHT IN THE UNIVERSE TO DO SO) are not helping and, IMHO, not taking the clever approach. I may be wrong in this radical and, I admit, not very friendly attitude, but it gets on my nerves that only those who try to do the legal and honest thing become targets, while others live happily in piracy everywhere, damaging us and the retroscene in general.
So what about Codemasters, the *only* company that denies their games and then offers them for download?
They're the only company doing what comes close to "the right thing" and you've made them a target of your insane ramblings.
You're a hypocrite of the worst kind. As has been pointed out, until you delete *every* game that you don't have permission to own, then you're no better than the rest of us.
As an aside, has the "I own the original therefore I'm entitled to a .tzx" been tested in court? Is it actually a legal statement?
On 2005-06-13 16:50, Dunny wrote:
As an aside, has the "I own the original therefore I'm entitled to a .tzx" been tested in court? Is it actually a legal statement?
AIUI, no. Making your own TZX and copying it for your own purposes should be fine, so you'd be able to play Pimania or whatever on anything from your PC to your iPod.
The problem I think is the distribution, the line being drawn that any copies you own must be copies made from something you yourself bought. A copy from a friend/associate/download site won't do, even if you once owned the original.
At least, that's the way it was (and should be) - fair use and all that. But the copyright laws are in a state of flux as you know, with some record publishers wanting to restrict the number of copies for personal use down to as low a number as possible, trying to force you to buy the same thing more than once.
On 2005-06-13 17:02, NickH wrote:
But the copyright laws are in a state of flux as you know, with some record publishers wanting to restrict the number of copies for personal use down to as low a number as possible, trying to force you to buy the same thing more than once.
That's all fine but in the case of the majority of Spectrum games, originals are no longer available to buy. So I should be allowed to keep a backup of the game, either on cassette or in the form of a tzx just in case the original tape does break, as long as I don't distribute it to anyone else if permission hasn't been given.
On 2005-06-13 16:36, alban lusitanae wrote:
And I stick by that post PSP. Don't worry about it.
Again, if WoS is trying to get the retroscene in the most legal manner, as I said and mantain it does, then people denying distribution are not helping and, IMHO, not taking the clever approach. I may be wrong in this radical and, I admit, not very friendly attitude, but it gets on my nerves that only those who try to do the legal and honest thing become targets, while others live happily in piracy everywhere, damaging us and the retroscene in general. That's my opinion, a heated one, maybe unfriendly one, and less-than-diplomatic, but yes, I feel strongly about this and I appologize to those who view things differently, but that is the way I think and mantain my position.
At least I'm not an hipocrite and coward, and stand for what I believe in.
At least you admit your thoughts are radical.
I think the majority of people here arent bothered, the police arent gonna coming knocking on our doors to arrest us for having Speccy files on our computer which we didnt own before.
Theres much much worse things to worry about than getting all on your high horse and moaning about companies denying distribution or deleteing your MAME roms as you feel you wont be a saint otherwise.
Who really gives a monkeys. Codemasters can do what they want, its their games, same for any other company.
Come on name names. Who exactly is damaging the retro scene, who are the 'others' who live in piracy ?!?
People here in the past talk about other websites which offer the 'denied' games but as with most messageboards we dont mention the website. We are allowed to talk about them. I dont see Codemasters or other companies going crazy saying 'dont talk about these websites' etc.
So who are these 'pirates' who are damaging the retroscene and us ?!? Talk about over the top Alban (Again !).
You can sit there on your high horse proud that you've deleted MAME from your machine, Odin and Codemasters games but who really cares ?
You are a total hypocrite as i'm sure you have Speccy files on your machine which you never owned. Like i said earlier so what if people have Speccy files where they didnt own that game 20 years ago, the companies arent bothered by it, i dont see US Gold sueing people for having them.
Basically some companies will let people have their games for free, some wont, some will deny their games as they might re-release them sometime or whatever. At the end of the day its their games and they can do what they want with them.
In an earlier post on the famous Paul McKenna thread you said 'Anyway, his games are not distribuited. BIG DEAL! What have we got, 15000 others to play'. So have you got originals of all these games ? As if you havent then surely you are breaking the law and being illegal and are the same as the rest of us 'pirates' ?
Of course you are welcome to your radical views but reading them is just laughable. If this stresses you out so so so much you are gonna suffer from a heart attack by the time your 30 when 'proper' stressful things happen. Crazy
[ This Message was edited by: psj3809 on 2005-06-13 17:24 ]
[ This Message was edited by: psj3809 on 2005-06-13 17:33 ]
On 2005-06-12 21:29, Necros wrote:
When did anyone say that WoS was an illegal site? Apart from that gimp Gamestage, I can't imagine anyone saying something as stupid and ill-informed as that.
World of Spectrum is possibly the only completely legal site on the 'net dedicated to emulation and the old computer scene.
Necros.
there are others but id guess they wouldnt be considered huge websites. except back2roots, which has alot of content too, comes to mind.
Comments
Ocean haven't done that. The absence of any denial isn't evidence of acceptance.
It's not as though they're very collectible.
(Except for that CD one..)
As has been previously mentioned, neither Ocean nor Infogrames/Atari (who bought Ocean around 1997 or so) have given permission for the free download of their games. In addition, even if they had, many of Ocean's games were coin-op or film licenses and as far as I'm aware, no coin-op or film company has allowed Speccy games based on their products to be freely distributed.
Great. I'm sure the Codies really care.
You're joking, right? I mean, seriously Alban - you don't think that's just a teeny bit paranoid?
If you were being completely honest and on the level you'd delete at least 75% and possibly nearer 90% of the WOS archive you downloaded - cos that's the proportion that hasn't had explicit permissions from the recognised IP holder given. I mean, if someone robs my house and gets caught, they can't turn round and say to the police "but they didn't have a big sign up saying 'Please don't steal my stuff' so I thought I had their permission."
[ This Message was edited by: Malc74 on 2005-06-12 03:20 ]
IMHO it's the same thing saying to someone "You can look around and finding the games" and "Here's the site:" because you actively pushing the search. I have dissuaded many people from doing it. Those who don't are just helping the sites which don't care. But hey, the actions always stay with those who write them. And I don't have to point any names. Just read the posts and you will see who is always saying "you can get the games elsewhere there is no problem about it" or "If you look well enough you will find them" and those, like me, who rant about the growing destruction of the retroscene by those who not only don't help it, but deny everything and if that was the great almighty solution.
About the spies: I'm not paranoid, I live in the real world. They exist and they are paid to be around. It seems there are other people who live in dreamworlds but I'm not one of them.
And I feel troubled by the fact that it started a time ago a strange thing: I never saw so many people saying this site is as illegal as other sites. Well, if that's the truth, why bother? Just erase it and get the archive somewhere else in a dark corner of the net. Because that's what I think everyone is aiming at, so that it becomes easier to get what they want.
I won't stop to say what I want, and turning the mirror to people, because there are lots who didn't even belong here. Be in a place and only criticizing? That's helping alright... sheeeeesh
or even anygood :p
dizzys waay overhyped and all those damn simulators?
now theres an idea :)
Because Martijn, the WOS team, and all those who support the site one way or another want to do right by everybody - including the guys who actually wrote and published the games.
We also want a fun and useful website that is easily discoverable by anyone, and without having to search through malware-infected warez websites to find it.
Is that so hard to understand?
As you say, there are "renegade" sites out there carrying denied games. You won't find them publicised by the reputable websites in the community, so you really hardly hear of them.
The bottom line is webmasters and supporters doing the right thing - if you don't like that, then go elsewhere.
What's irritating is seeing everyone stating WoS is as an illegal site (and we are as illegal people) as other sites (and people)
We're on the same side here, m8. :)
Why is everybody comparing me to Gamestage, BTW?
World of Spectrum is possibly the only completely legal site on the 'net dedicated to emulation and the old computer scene.
Necros.
Cos you're talking bollocks as well...
It's a deadful negative spin on the situation, but technically correct in most cases.
But what makes WOS different from most of the other sites is that it's actively seeking to improve the situation.
* Me
* Martijn
Although we try not to put that spin on it.
HUMOUR???????
*falls off stool in shock*
no, that mustve passed me by, like the second world war and things
You're such a knight in shining armour. It still doesn't detract from the fact that the vast majority of the archive you downloaded doesn't have permission from the recognised IP holder to be distributed. Delete them, then come back and lecture us.
I think you're watching too many X-Files reruns.
This site is different from many other sites in that Martijn and others actively seek out companies/programmers/copyright holders and ask that they give permission for free distribution of their games. However, that doesn't mean that just because Jon Ritman says "sure, I give permission" that we can all freely download Head Over Heels or Batman with a clear conscience. The fact of the matter is that neither Atari (who presumably now own all the old Ocean IP) or DC Comics (who own the Batman rights) have given permission for free download of said games. Unless Jon Ritman had a very lucrative contract in which the rights to the Speccy versions of his games lapsed back to him after a certain number of years then whether he gives permission or not is entirely irrelevant. At the moment, many games on WOS are available for download based either on permission from programmers/individuals who probably don't own the rights or because companies/individuals who were contacted never replied. That's hardly 100% legal now, is it?
So let's turn the mirror on you, Mr Moral Guardian. Can you honestly say you have a right to have most of that archive on your computer? Do you own the games? Can you prove beyond reasonable doubt that the recognised IP holder has given permission for free distribution of every game? Once you've sorted all that out, then you can come back and lecture the rest of us.
(Blimey - that's probably my longest post ever! And my 600th as well!)
[ This Message was edited by: Malc74 on 2005-06-13 05:34 ]
He surely does come up with some great OTT posts !
Again, if WoS is trying to get the retroscene in the most legal manner, as I said and mantain it does, then people denying distribution (although yes they have ALL THE RIGHT IN THE UNIVERSE TO DO SO) are not helping and, IMHO, not taking the clever approach. I may be wrong in this radical and, I admit, not very friendly attitude, but it gets on my nerves that only those who try to do the legal and honest thing become targets, while others live happily in piracy everywhere, damaging us and the retroscene in general. That's my opinion, a heated one, maybe unfriendly one, and less-than-diplomatic, but yes, I feel strongly about this and I appologize to those who view things differently, but that is the way I think and mantain my position.
At least I'm not an hipocrite and coward, and stand for what I believe in.
So I presume that you've now deleted all of the games in your copy of the archive which don't have explicit distribution permission from the recognised IP holder?
Because until you do that you are a hypocrite, Alban.
So what about Codemasters, the *only* company that denies their games and then offers them for download?
They're the only company doing what comes close to "the right thing" and you've made them a target of your insane ramblings.
You're a hypocrite of the worst kind. As has been pointed out, until you delete *every* game that you don't have permission to own, then you're no better than the rest of us.
As an aside, has the "I own the original therefore I'm entitled to a .tzx" been tested in court? Is it actually a legal statement?
D.
AIUI, no. Making your own TZX and copying it for your own purposes should be fine, so you'd be able to play Pimania or whatever on anything from your PC to your iPod.
The problem I think is the distribution, the line being drawn that any copies you own must be copies made from something you yourself bought. A copy from a friend/associate/download site won't do, even if you once owned the original.
At least, that's the way it was (and should be) - fair use and all that. But the copyright laws are in a state of flux as you know, with some record publishers wanting to restrict the number of copies for personal use down to as low a number as possible, trying to force you to buy the same thing more than once.
That's all fine but in the case of the majority of Spectrum games, originals are no longer available to buy. So I should be allowed to keep a backup of the game, either on cassette or in the form of a tzx just in case the original tape does break, as long as I don't distribute it to anyone else if permission hasn't been given.
Necros.
At least you admit your thoughts are radical.
I think the majority of people here arent bothered, the police arent gonna coming knocking on our doors to arrest us for having Speccy files on our computer which we didnt own before.
Theres much much worse things to worry about than getting all on your high horse and moaning about companies denying distribution or deleteing your MAME roms as you feel you wont be a saint otherwise.
Who really gives a monkeys. Codemasters can do what they want, its their games, same for any other company.
Come on name names. Who exactly is damaging the retro scene, who are the 'others' who live in piracy ?!?
People here in the past talk about other websites which offer the 'denied' games but as with most messageboards we dont mention the website. We are allowed to talk about them. I dont see Codemasters or other companies going crazy saying 'dont talk about these websites' etc.
So who are these 'pirates' who are damaging the retroscene and us ?!? Talk about over the top Alban (Again !).
You can sit there on your high horse proud that you've deleted MAME from your machine, Odin and Codemasters games but who really cares ?
You are a total hypocrite as i'm sure you have Speccy files on your machine which you never owned. Like i said earlier so what if people have Speccy files where they didnt own that game 20 years ago, the companies arent bothered by it, i dont see US Gold sueing people for having them.
Basically some companies will let people have their games for free, some wont, some will deny their games as they might re-release them sometime or whatever. At the end of the day its their games and they can do what they want with them.
In an earlier post on the famous Paul McKenna thread you said 'Anyway, his games are not distribuited. BIG DEAL! What have we got, 15000 others to play'. So have you got originals of all these games ? As if you havent then surely you are breaking the law and being illegal and are the same as the rest of us 'pirates' ?
Of course you are welcome to your radical views but reading them is just laughable. If this stresses you out so so so much you are gonna suffer from a heart attack by the time your 30 when 'proper' stressful things happen. Crazy
[ This Message was edited by: psj3809 on 2005-06-13 17:24 ]
[ This Message was edited by: psj3809 on 2005-06-13 17:33 ]
Dr. Alban - It's My Life :))
then youll love the Dizzy simulator im making.
there are others but id guess they wouldnt be considered huge websites. except back2roots, which has alot of content too, comes to mind.