AstroBall (Sam Coup

caffeinekid · June 2007

Hi there,

Does the full version of this game for the Sam exist in a preserved digital image format, as I have searched hight and low to no avail.

I am considering making a PC/Mac version of the game (currently attempting to contact Balor Knight for permission, if anyone has contact details for him..?) and would like the Sam version as well as the Speccy version I have already.

Also if anyone has any technical information on the game such as a set of level maps they would be invaluable to me. Perhaps information on all the game elements - the power ups and extras too.

Cheers for your help, guys. :)

CKay · June 2007

[edit mheide: link removed by request of Quazar]

Nice game, glad to hear your gonna do a remake, for some reason the SAM version didn`t have the extra shootemup game between levels. Just been playing these and Balor`s sequel on the speccy (Turbulance, too hard) few days ago :)

caffeinekid · June 2007

Cheers for that. Balor certainly seems to be a tricky guy to get hold of.

CKay · June 2007

Perhaps Quazar or David might know. I`ve posted a message asking on the SAM mailing list, just in case any of the lads don`t visit WoS often, as there`s a few of them seem to know where a few of the big names are now, good luck anyhow :)

edit - doh, just thought, there`s a page about him here :-

http://www.worldofsam.org/node/76

Amazed to see he programmed Re-Volt and The Italian Job games, love both of those, seems to be doing well, you might be able to get a contact for him afterall :)

mheide · June 2007

As a precaution, could I please ask visitors not to put up any SAM Coupe software and link to it from WoS?
Apparantly each and every single title is distribution denied - I get complaints as soon as any link is up...

Quazar · June 2007

mheide wrote: »

As a precaution, could I please ask visitors not to put up any SAM Coupe software and link to it from WoS?
Apparantly each and every single title is distribution denied - I get complaints as soon as any link is up...

It's just really to be on the safe side until authors say they do allow their software to be distributed freely or whatever.

I've tried to track down a lot of authors, and continue to do so. Some don't reply. Others do which is great....

But a couple of old authors have been somewhat put off about allowing anything to be done with their old software - including bits and pieces that weren't released or were still in development - as they've seen their stuff floating about the net.

Colin

CKay · June 2007

I`m sorry Martijn :( I should have known better, there are certain games that I know are denied such as Manic Miner, and other`s that I know Colin is gaining rights for to use for cover disks on SAM Revival, but I thought Astroball was OK, as even though it`s a good game, it wasn`t one of the `big` games like Prince of Persia or Lemmings etc.

Sorry once again if I`ve stepped on anyone`s toe`s.

mheide · June 2007

Don't worry, CKay, I know you meant well.

It's just somewhat infuriating that the only time we ever get complaints about the WoS forums, is when a SAM Coupe link has been placed. 12 links were placed so far, resulting in 12 complaints.
No other system produced complaints so far, ever.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't care about those copyrights (you well know I care), but it would seem safest to never put up a link for a SAM Coupe title here.

caffeinekid · June 2007

I didn't realise that Sam software was such a minefield.

I had not actually heard of this game until recently as I moved on from the Spectrum (the first time around ;)) at the end of 1999 when I got my Atari ST, so missed this game when it was first out.

I had it recommended to me and thought it might make a nice remake project if the authors were fine with that. I didn't realise there was such a problem with Sam software and I'm sorry if I touched a nerve mentioning it.

zxbruno · June 2007

The copyrights pop-up menu in worldofsam isn't working.

Quazar · June 2007

Not a minefield as such, it's just a lot of us users respect the copyright of the authors in that their software isn't shoved up for download until they have said it's okay themselves, as compared to WOS's different approach of having software available for download until the authors deny it.

It's just a bit of respect for them really, the more you dig into the behind the scenes goings on it's only fair to let them dictate what they want done with it. Afterall it was them that poured the effort into producing the software for such a niche machine, and a lot of authors didn't even get the royalties for the stuff that they wrote - unfortunately the more people I interview the more that seems to be the case.

Colin

CKay · June 2007

Thanks Martijn ;)

A lot of the guys have been doing a lot of work these past two years especially getting sites up, changing formats of the disk images, contacting people etc etc so at the moment it seems that things are in a bit of a state regarding being able to pass around software etc etc

It saddens me in ways as often someone will say on here that they downloaded SimCoupe only to not be able to find much software for it, and I`d dearly love more speccy enthusiasts to get into the machine, even if for the purely selfish reason that I`m sure a fair few folks here could knock out a decent game, even in Basic (as I like to dabble with).

I`m sure that in while things will be a lot better, but I`m not one the guys that`s doing the hard work, so just hope so :)

There is always SAM Revival for certain games as a legitimate outlet, with some real corkers like Manic Miner and Invasion II.

caffienekid, it`s me that was in the wrong, I should have known better ;)

caffeinekid · June 2007

If I manage to get in contact with Balor Knight perhaps he could also give an answer to the free distribution question on his games too - assuming that the copyright still lies with him?

I just wanted to ask him how he felt about having one of his games remade for the PC (for free of course) as a courtesy - I always have my best go to contact authors before releasing a remake of their work, it is definitely a matter of respect so I do very much understand your stance on the disks/images themselves.

Thanks for clearing all this up - we learn something new every day.

The Sam certainly does seem a very capable machine and I hope one day the games are there for everyone to enjoy again, with their authors' blessings.

Quazar · June 2007

caffeinekid wrote: »

If I manage to get in contact with Balor Knight perhaps he could also give an answer to the free distribution question on his games too - assuming that the copyright still lies with him?

If you track him down do please ask him :)

Colin.

Jumping Stack · June 2007

CKay wrote: »

Thanks Martijn ;)

It saddens me in ways as often someone will say on here that they downloaded SimCoupe only to not be able to find much software for it.

Yes, I did just that. Lemmings is the only enjoyable game that I have been able to get so far. And it is such a good version that I find the whole SAM thing a big disappointment - I can see the potential there but I can't get to enjoy it. I know that the good games must be out there somewhere but the free distribution ones that I have seen seem a bit lacking in sparkle.
I hear Colin's point about underpaid authors etc but it really is time now to just make the stuff available and keep the memory of the SAM alive. I understand that it can't be done if there are bitter people out there complaining but it is frustrating as the SAM is so close to non-existent now.

At the same time that these games were coming out I wrote a number of magazine travel features for which I put in a lot of research and for which I was poorly paid or - in one case - not paid at al. They are often reprinted now and I get nothing for them. I don't fight for any money because I have grown up and moved on and the features are out of date and it would be laughable to see any big money being made off the back of them. In fact I think it is flattering that people still want to print or publish them at all.

WoS has exactly the right attitude to permission IMO and it is just this attitude that is keeping the Speccy so brilliantly alive. The underlying pettyness in the SAM camp is killing the scene off, in spite of the good efforts of its handful of active supporters. Sim Coupe is a great emulator with exciting plans for RZX recording and more, and yet there are so few playable games.

@Quazar - can SAM Revival be sent on a CD? My kit can't run disks and when I asked to buy them as an emailed version you declined.

gasman · June 2007

For all I know this may be a lead people have already followed and had no luck with - but has anyone asked Chris Pile if he knows Balor's whereabouts? From what I recall they worked together (if nothing else, Chris wrote the hidden Breakout game in Turbulence) and I'm pretty sure Chris has been around either here or on CSS not so long ago. Just a thought.

Jumping Stack · June 2007

gasman wrote: »

For all I know this may be a lead people have already followed and had no luck with - but has anyone asked Chris Pile if he knows Balor's whereabouts? From what I recall they worked together (if nothing else, Chris wrote the hidden Breakout game in Turbulence) and I'm pretty sure Chris has been around either here or on CSS not so long ago. Just a thought.

Googling him produces a link to the networking site Linkedin. I guess he can be found there. I didn't stop to see how to become a member of Linkedin though.

caffeinekid · June 2007

Chris has been very helpful and given me some good insight into things.

I have messaged Balor on Linkedin and also tried putting out some feelers in another couple of directions. Touch wood etc that one of these attempts pays off. :)

NickH · June 2007

Jumping Stack wrote: »

I hear Colin's point about underpaid authors etc but it really is time now to just make the stuff available and keep the memory of the SAM alive. I understand that it can't be done if there are bitter people out there complaining but it is frustrating as the SAM is so close to non-existent now.

So long as SAM Revival is paying out money to rerelease old SAM software, I'd say that there's still value in it - they're doing what we hope Ultimate and Codemasters will do one day: re-release old software in a form suitable for today's machines.

And unless you understand the back-story to all of this (I haven't seen everything, but I've seen enough), then in this case it's good to show a bit of respect to these coders and accept their decisions. These people are "bitter" for a very good reason.

Quazar · June 2007

Jumping Stack wrote: »

@Quazar - can SAM Revival be sent on a CD? My kit can't run disks and when I asked to buy them as an emailed version you declined.

I declined as an emailed version as you were just after the disk image, and not the paper magazine. And as I said in a reply, Sam Revival is produced with the paper magazine and the disk going hand in hand, with articles and programs crossing over being relevant to each other - things like interviews with the coders of games on the coverdisk, and source code relating to an article - there's a lot of work goes into both sides by the contributers, and if you are really wanting to get into the world of the Sam Coupé it's quite an invaluable read. I don't just supply one half or the other, or even mix and match one issue's paper magazine and anothers coverdisk which I was asked once!

Now clearly I would like to address the issue for emulator users - a few readers who I know only use Sim Coupe make an image from the disk or use the 'Drive A:' option to read directly in the emulator, but you are to date the only person who's enquired without a disk drive to be able to read the real Sam disk on your machine. Now one of your other reasons for email only was that you had postal problems, but that would still be the case with a CD ... but I would go with a solution is to include a CD, as an extra in with the actual paper magazine and disk for those who may need it to get around not having a PC disk drive.

Let me come back and readdress this in a week or two (as there's not much I can do until then as I've got everything all packed up as I'm moving back up to Scotland later this week!)

Colin

Jumping Stack · June 2007

NickH wrote: »

So long as SAM Revival is paying out money to rerelease old SAM software, I'd say that there's still value in it - they're doing what we hope Ultimate and Codemasters will do one day: re-release old software in a form suitable for today's machines.

That's a fair point. If Revival is getting some payment into the right hands then all to the good.

NickH wrote: »

And unless you understand the back-story to all of this (I haven't seen everything, but I've seen enough), then in this case it's good to show a bit of respect to these coders and accept their decisions. These people are "bitter" for a very good reason.

I'm don't like myself for appearing to pre-judge, and I obviously respect any decisions made by the copyright owners. For all I know the coders in question were sent into penury or lost their homes to the SAM escapade.
If there is money to be made for the coders via Revival then they should make contact with Quazar and set something up straight away (as there is a window of opportunity open at the moment and it will close), but I expect there are - inevitably - legal issues.
Whatever the justifications for bitterness though, the SAM scene is decaying and missing out on the potential of the current enthusiasm for retro. Did you see the recent interest in the Speccy from teenagers in the Sinclair part of this forum? This is a huge credit to Martjn, yourself and others on WoS who have brought it all so vividly back to life. It would be great to see that replicated, even in a minor way, for the SAM.

Jumping Stack · June 2007

Quazar wrote: »

Let me come back and readdress this in a week or two (as there's not much I can do until then as I've got everything all packed up as I'm moving back up to Scotland later this week!)

Colin

No rush. It will be a few months before I can get the postal system sorted out properly and then find the time to enjoy the Revivals. But the post is beginning to get through...
Good luck with the move.

mheide · June 2007

Quazar wrote: »

Not a minefield as such, it's just a lot of us users respect the copyright of the authors in that their software isn't shoved up for download until they have said it's okay themselves, as compared to WOS's different approach of having software available for download until the authors deny it.

I had to think for a while what it is that bugged me so much last night. It's certainly not the copyright protection, nor the fact that people care deeply about it.

I found it's the rather heavyhanded way you go about it. Although you could easily have posted a message in the thread kindly asking the poster to remove the link, you immediately mailed us to file a complaint - and you're not even the copyright holder or a spokesman for them, as far as I can tell.
Although I'll of course consider these copyrights, perhaps you could remember that people are not always posting links in bad faith.

Philip Kendall · June 2007

If links to denied Spectrum games are posted here, the forum administrators (who are not the copyright holders or spokesmen for them) remove the links. They don't post to the thread asking the original poster to remove the link. What's the difference?

caffeinekid · June 2007

It does seem a case of guilty until proven innocent..? It's a shame.

I assumed it was a spokesman for the copyright owner that had asked for the link to be taken down.

I guess I can understand a save rather than sorry approach but surely you can't police the entire internet? It's a very big place.

I hope Balor appears and says that free distribution of his games are allowed. I think he has most definitely moved on and seems to be doing ok for himself as a console games coder.

Quazar · June 2007

mheide wrote: »

I found it's the rather heavyhanded way you go about it. Although you could easily have posted a message in the thread kindly asking the poster to remove the link, you immediately mailed us to file a complaint - and you're not even the copyright holder or a spokesman for them, as far as I can tell.

I used the standard 'Report Post' option to bring the post to the attention of any of the moderators. The feature is part of the forums and there by every single post on the forums for any reader to use and I don't consider that to be a heavy handed way.

As I've said, it's just that a lot of Sam users genuinely do try to respect the copyright of stuff until authors have been contacted. I don't represent the copyright holder in this instance, but just thought it would be the right thing to do to report the post for reasons outlined earlier.

I know myself what it's like to be on the other end - as there's a couple of my bits and pieces of mine out there "in the wild", and where they are there's nothing I can do to have it removed as some of the general "rom sites" don't care whatsoever.

I also PM'd CKAY privately afterwards to actually say sorry for reporting it and explained my reasons as to why I did, and do also know he didn't post the link for any malicious reason or in bad faith. There's certainly no hard feelings there, from previous chats with him he seems a top chap and I really admire his enthusiasm for Sam stuff, especially with the few things he's working on which is tremendous to see.

I acted on the side of caution... some people may agree, some don't, that's life! But like a few other things I get shot down for trying to do my best for the Sam... makes me question why I bother.

Colin.

Jumping Stack · June 2007

Philip Kendall wrote: »

If links to denied Spectrum games are posted here, the forum administrators (who are not the copyright holders or spokesmen for them) remove the links. They don't post to the thread asking the original poster to remove the link. What's the difference?

Well one difference is that the Spectrum games are actively denied (which this SAM game isn't) and the forum administrators have opted into a set of values to see that these specifically requests to deny distribution are satisfied. By creating and developing this site and its content the WoS administrators have earned the right to make these decisions on behalf of its membership/community. I don't suppose that WoS administrators go about vetting posts and links left on other forums to see if they comply with WoS standards although, in regard to the actively denied games, you would at least be doing so with the copyright holder's specifically stated wishes to hand.
This is not to say that Quazar is necessarily wrong in taking a stance over an issue that he feels strongly about, an no doubt feels he has every right to state his case, but it does illustrate the difference.

DavidB · June 2007

Some people have unfortunately always taken the piss in the past.

Let me tell you of a true story - names have been changed to protect the guilty...

A game was released by company "XXX"'s software devision - which was an updated version of a well known clasic on the "ZX83" machine...

XXX unfortunately closed down, leaving the author of the game with the rights to his title.

The author, who was friends with a dedicated user of XXX. His friend offered to sell on the game on his behalf. The author was pleased to see it available, and came to a nice agreement with his friend.

Company 2 - let's call them DiskPreparation - unfortunately decided that selling the game without the authors permission was a nice thing to do. To make some money.

DiskPrep unfortunately due to having a large customer base managed to do this successfully. Leaving all the people who where entitled to anything out of pocket.

Moral: You can't even help your friends without some fat bearded bastard trying to screw you.

Quazar · June 2007

daveykins wrote: »

Let me tell you of a true story - names have been changed to protect the guilty...

If I remember correctly from what you've said in the past Daveykins, that the programmer in question got no royalties from the first publisher, and of course nothing whatsoever from the second unauthorised publisher despite even confronting them at a show, and it's probably fairly safe to say the title being would perhaps be one of the top Sam games sellers in its time after the likes of prince of persia and lemmings.

Colin

mheide · June 2007

Philip Kendall wrote: »

If links to denied Spectrum games are posted here, the forum administrators (who are not the copyright holders or spokesmen for them) remove the links. They don't post to the thread asking the original poster to remove the link. What's the difference?

Jumping Stack answered it correctly.

When I get a "no", I go out of my way to make sure there are no links to said game from WoS. I don't go around mailing other sites.
WoS never got an denial (nor ever asked, nor even hosted) for posting SAM Coupe titles. The slight problem is that no such game was in fact hosted on WoS, but only a link was placed to <some other site that hosted it>.

Anyway, I hope to have explained why I expressed anger last night.
I repeat it has nothing to do with the copyrights per se, but the way the messages are generally delivered by the SAM Coupe people.
I hasten to add I do see their point of view.

mheide · June 2007

Quazar wrote: »

I acted on the side of caution... some people may agree, some don't, that's life! But like a few other things I get shot down for trying to do my best for the Sam... makes me question why I bother.

There, there, I only tried to explain why I acted the way I did. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not a robot, and have feelings too. And since I acted rather strongly last night, I believed you deserved an explanation as soon as I found out myself.

AstroBall (Sam Coup

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