Understood.
I will give the double sided laminate a try because with 2 laminates you have to register the holes and the squares anyway due to the keyboard that is not symmetrical on Y axis.
I made big circles where I have to drill, so I raise the probability to match the lower side circle.
I'd love to be able to get hold of some cheap too, as I have a load of Speccy's all in need of repair.
If you need membranes and want to avoid high postage, why not buy them from RWAP Software (http://www.rwapsoftware.co.uk/). They are local agent of SINTECH in Britain. We have another agent in Spain if anyone is interested.
Remember this is applied information technology so, eventhough I could find membranes in my corner shop, for me the best satisfaction comes from a self made piece of hardware...that works obviously.
unquote
For those of us who are creative and can create printed circuit boards, can solder etc, making membrane replacements from scratch can only be a good thing. I understand the need of businessmen to see a market and exploit it, but nothing quite compares to building something for yourself and getting something working. Especially when the plus/128 membranes are so overpriced. Why pay almost 20 quid for a keyboard membrane when the rest of the computer is about a fiver on Ebay. I understand WHY a new membrane is almost four times the price, it's just I refuse to pay it if I can build an alternative.
If Lovespider can get something working, good luck to him - and if he wants to share his ideas with me so I can make some aswell, - even better :)
This is the best replacement keyboard web page I've seen to date, link obtained from WoS. The web page is in Spanish but it's dead easy to follow things as the page is littered with very good, detailed pictures. Isidro Nu?ez is a genius, and I can assure you, his ideas do work as I've built his design for a 48K keyboard with great success.
There's also some details of making a PC keyboard adaptor on his site too.
Dear Death and all,
I started this project thinking by the first moment that any idea that comes from me or comes from you is vital. I simply wanted to give an answer to those people that has a 48K but no way to get a membrane (probably it will get harder to find). For sure you can expect me to share anything!
For the time being I just put up a site to store the files and as soon as I get my first goals, you will find there the pictures and the news.
The infos I got from all of you was more that useful so I keep thanking and thanking.
Hopefully this week I get all the material I need (the lamp, the acid and the laminates) and then "start the hardware".
B/R
Lovespider
P.S. I purchased a very very slim button like in the posted link by Death. The feeling on the keyb is completely different so I abandoned this solution.
These are the news:
- the double layered pre-sensibilized PCB: 12,00?
- the powder: 2,00?
- still searching for the lamp
The man in the electronic shop said that to make this type of circuit, one has to be a little bit expert.
Since I don't want to throw everything out of the window, please is there any of you that capable to do those boards? I need deep step-by-step explanation.
If not, can you advise me a site?
I made my own light box from some wood and two UV bulbs I got from Maplin. They cost me a lot of money. I could have used cheaper bulbs, but as my lightbox has a closed in top surface, I didn't want things to get too hot.
You are doing a double sided board, yes? The man said you have to be an expert yes? This is why I said about making two boards and sticking them together. If you plan your artwork properly getting the two boards to register properly won't be an issue.
Do you want instructions to prepare the artwork, or etch the PCB aswell?
2 Euros for what powder? Developer probably as etch powder would cost more. Still, maybe it is cheaper there?
The man didn't mean the register issue but the develop itself.
He said that the whole procedure has to be perfect and one has to make some trials before it gets ok.
The artwork is made by me in Autocad format (see http://zxkeyboard.virtuale.org/autodesk/acwebpublish.htm) but I didn't ever tried the etch procedure.
This is what I'm looking for...
The powder is selled in small bottles...probably that's why is cheap.
Ok, but I don't really see the shop man's point. It's true you have to be precise, but it's easy to develop both sides of the board at the same time, just use a tank that makes the board "stand up" on a 45 degree angle rather than simply laying flat.
Assuming you are starting with pre-sensitised board and assuming your artwork is on clear plastic film:
Lay your artwork, ink side up on the UV box glass, place the board on top of the artwork and position it correctly. Make sure there is a small amount of weight on top of the board to hold it flat to the artwork and then switch on the UV. After the correct exposure time (maybe approx 5 minutes), turn off the UV, remove the board and artwork.
Repeat the above for the other side of the board, making sure you get the registration right.
place your exposed board in your developer tank, agitate until the purple dye stops running off the board. Examine the board and repair any broken tracks with a Dalo pen
Wash the board in cold water
Put the developed board into your FeCl3 tank and agitate as normal.
When fully etched, wash, dry and drill your PCB.
It's quite easy to do, but you may need some practice. Some tips I can give you are:
Make sure your developer isn't too strong, make sure it isn't too hot. Do not use caustic soda solution as a developer until you know EXACTLY what you're doing - it'll strip the etch resist right off the board if it's even slightly too strong or too warm. Even if your sink unit is made of the highest quality stainless steel, FeCl3 will rot it away, so don't throw your used chemistry down the sink - oh, it'll stain plastic and just about anything else (including your fingers) a bright yellow/orange colour, so don't throw it away down a plastic sink either. Your wife will not be happy if you stain/rot the sink. Trust me, I know......
FeCl3 (ferric chloride) is poisonous and corrosive. If you can afford to use a different etch chemical do so, but if you can only use FeCl3, handle with extreme care.
Mel the Bell does this shit for a living. ask him in case I have forgotten something.
Hey Lovespider: I might be missing the point a little, but if your worried about photographic etching / developing then it's worth giving "Press n Peel PCB Film " a go. All you need is access to a laser printer and an Iron, see http://www.cibs.co.uk/etch/x7.html for details and a tutorial. I can't see why you couldn't use this for your membrane project, I've used it for loads of stuff without problems, and for simple home brew projects you really can't beat it.
Well,
I think this is even better. I'll try to find here in Italy a reseller.
If it is simple as you say, I'll definitely go for that solution.
Thank you dasteph....
Hi Death,
I'm very busy these days. I made a try with the iron and the transparency on a white paper.
Seems that works but I have to use a photo paper because the transparency slides while ironing. I'm also considering the UVA method you said but I have to find some time/money to find the bulbs and to build the box.
December has 13 working days for us so I'll try to bump up the project.
Bye!
"nessun sbalzi sono sicuro che le cose saranno giuste alla fine."
:wink: Ehehehe, it's not crap but the 2 first words...I would translate back to "nobody jumps, I'm sure that things will be allright at the end".
By the way, have a nice Chirstmas and prosperous New Year....I'm trying hard to find some bucks to get the bulbs.
We have to be patience because I'll not abandon this task....
Hello everybody,
got big problems getting bulbs. I'm following 2 paths: getting bulbs, contacting some friend of a friend of a friend that has some lab at home & skills.
I tried some "print on transparencies" and then ironing to a paper but they always slide causing the paths to be blurred.
I will probably select the DEATH solution by developing 2 very-very-thin layers and then soldering together.
Anyway this project is not abandoned!!
Sorry for the delay. I'll try to speed up a little bit.
You say about bulbs. I assume UV bulbs? You can use the ones out of an insect killer found in restaurants etc, or a stage effects shop where they are called Black Light bulbs.
Nessun preoccupa il compagno.
Dite circa le lampadine. Ammetto le lampadine UV? Potete usare quei da un assassino dell'insetto trovato in ristoranti ecc, o gli effetti della fase acquistano dove sono denominati lampadine del Black.
Oh well, I'll try also to find them. The summer that is approaching should bring some spare parts in the shops.
OT: sh**t!! I missed the 25th anniversary T-shirt!!
Hi everybody,
got some news.
I'm building a bromograph (I hope the translation is right) following these instructions: http://www.texsoft.it/index.php?c=electronics&l=it.
Instructions are in italian but schematics are so simple that you can guess how to build it.
I got almost all components so I will be ready to etch some circuits soon.
YO! My lightbox is up'n'running. Going to etch very soon.
In the meanwhile I rechecked my ciurcuits and the keyboard schematics should be ok now.
Will do some tests with NaOH first (to develop) and then FeCl3 (to etch) as DEATH said in some posts.
The bill:
- old broken scanner, free
- n.3 HITACHI F8T5 tubes, 18 EUR
- n.3 neon reactors, 18 EUR
- n.3 starters, 6 EUR
- n.3 starter plugs, 3 EUR
- n.6 neon plugs, 4 EUR
- screws and cables are recycled from other components
TOTAL EUR 50
Only one single little thing I'd change. The reflector sheet - white plastic? Change it for tinfoil.
If you get a sheet of cardboard, paint it with a little varnish (or gloss paint), wait for it to be almost dry, and then lay a sheet of aluminium cooking foil over it. It'll stick to the card and be nice and flat ready for you to cut to shape.
Because, if you have anythng in there that glows in UV (like some white things do), you'll be converting half of your UV to white (or whatever) colour, and therefore wasting it.
That has given me a little inspiration to make something similar, I am very impressed with that, it's very professional!
I have a scrap scanner too - dunno why I didn't even consider using it (hangs head in shame).......
You are absolutely right DEATH.
I'll glue some aluminium cooking foil over it, cut it following the edge and that's all folks.
Thank you for the suggestion and thank you for the positive comment.
I'm not an electronic hobbyist so, said by you and considering all your skills, it is an honor!
The web hosting http://www.virtuale.org is not working or has some heavy failure so I changed my page to http://zxkeyboard.altervista.org
Please test it and eventually report the problems.
Don't worry, no advertisements or banners or pop-ups.
Thanks!
Very nice, and it's a huge improvement on my own little wooden lightbox.
The only thing I personally would like to see is an English translation on how you converted a scanner into a lightbox.
You have three tubes, three starters - but, only 2 of smething - what are these?
Are those PCB's ones you made yourself or pictures you've "borrowed" from somewhere else? If you made those yourself, some details on exposure times and blind-spots would be good since every light box is different.
My own box, with twin tubes gave adequate exposure in approx 5 minutes for standard "Fotoboard 2" - which seems to be about right. I have 24W (2x12W) eco-bulbs in mine, yours uses three tubes to give how much output?
1) the UV lightbox idea comes from a little browsing in Internet, so I reported the link in my site. I'll write brand new instructions in english soon.
2) can you tell me what you are referring to? In the list I posted 1 week ago I see 3 of something and 6 of something...
I probably missed the correct translations. Reading this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp I probably mean the ballasts.
3) You are probably referring to the examples in the italian link. No, they are not mine, they are examples made by this guy who had the idea.
As soon as I etch my own PCB I'll report everything. For sure I'll use NaOH for developing and FeCl3 for etching.
4) The tubes are 8W so I have 24W just as you. I installed the electro-mechanic timer so I have an adequate precision on timings.
:cry: Hello folks,
after months (years) of testings and frustration, family moving, grown child, I have to admit I did not find any easy nor less-than-easy way to put together a self made membrane.
I stucked when I had to build a mask to spray the sticky graphite on the transparent layer...so I ended up buying 3 new membranes for my 3 ZX in UK :-(
Comments
I will give the double sided laminate a try because with 2 laminates you have to register the holes and the squares anyway due to the keyboard that is not symmetrical on Y axis.
I made big circles where I have to drill, so I raise the probability to match the lower side circle.
If too difficult I'll use your solution.:-D
If you need membranes and want to avoid high postage, why not buy them from RWAP Software (http://www.rwapsoftware.co.uk/). They are local agent of SINTECH in Britain. We have another agent in Spain if anyone is interested.
Regards
Thomas
www.sintech-shop.de
Worlds biggest Spectrum-dealer
Quote
Remember this is applied information technology so, eventhough I could find membranes in my corner shop, for me the best satisfaction comes from a self made piece of hardware...that works obviously.
unquote
For those of us who are creative and can create printed circuit boards, can solder etc, making membrane replacements from scratch can only be a good thing. I understand the need of businessmen to see a market and exploit it, but nothing quite compares to building something for yourself and getting something working. Especially when the plus/128 membranes are so overpriced. Why pay almost 20 quid for a keyboard membrane when the rest of the computer is about a fiver on Ebay. I understand WHY a new membrane is almost four times the price, it's just I refuse to pay it if I can build an alternative.
If Lovespider can get something working, good luck to him - and if he wants to share his ideas with me so I can make some aswell, - even better :)
http://www.speccy.org/trastero/cosas/droy/teclado/teclado_s.htm
This is the best replacement keyboard web page I've seen to date, link obtained from WoS. The web page is in Spanish but it's dead easy to follow things as the page is littered with very good, detailed pictures. Isidro Nu?ez is a genius, and I can assure you, his ideas do work as I've built his design for a 48K keyboard with great success.
There's also some details of making a PC keyboard adaptor on his site too.
I started this project thinking by the first moment that any idea that comes from me or comes from you is vital. I simply wanted to give an answer to those people that has a 48K but no way to get a membrane (probably it will get harder to find).
For sure you can expect me to share anything!
For the time being I just put up a site to store the files and as soon as I get my first goals, you will find there the pictures and the news.
The infos I got from all of you was more that useful so I keep thanking and thanking.
Hopefully this week I get all the material I need (the lamp, the acid and the laminates) and then "start the hardware".
B/R
Lovespider
P.S. I purchased a very very slim button like in the posted link by Death. The feeling on the keyb is completely different so I abandoned this solution.
- the double layered pre-sensibilized PCB: 12,00?
- the powder: 2,00?
- still searching for the lamp
The man in the electronic shop said that to make this type of circuit, one has to be a little bit expert.
Since I don't want to throw everything out of the window, please is there any of you that capable to do those boards? I need deep step-by-step explanation.
If not, can you advise me a site?
Thanks in advance!
You are doing a double sided board, yes? The man said you have to be an expert yes? This is why I said about making two boards and sticking them together. If you plan your artwork properly getting the two boards to register properly won't be an issue.
Do you want instructions to prepare the artwork, or etch the PCB aswell?
2 Euros for what powder? Developer probably as etch powder would cost more. Still, maybe it is cheaper there?
I need more details lovespider :)
He said that the whole procedure has to be perfect and one has to make some trials before it gets ok.
The artwork is made by me in Autocad format (see http://zxkeyboard.virtuale.org/autodesk/acwebpublish.htm) but I didn't ever tried the etch procedure.
This is what I'm looking for...
The powder is selled in small bottles...probably that's why is cheap.
Assuming you are starting with pre-sensitised board and assuming your artwork is on clear plastic film:
Lay your artwork, ink side up on the UV box glass, place the board on top of the artwork and position it correctly. Make sure there is a small amount of weight on top of the board to hold it flat to the artwork and then switch on the UV. After the correct exposure time (maybe approx 5 minutes), turn off the UV, remove the board and artwork.
Repeat the above for the other side of the board, making sure you get the registration right.
place your exposed board in your developer tank, agitate until the purple dye stops running off the board. Examine the board and repair any broken tracks with a Dalo pen
Wash the board in cold water
Put the developed board into your FeCl3 tank and agitate as normal.
When fully etched, wash, dry and drill your PCB.
It's quite easy to do, but you may need some practice. Some tips I can give you are:
Make sure your developer isn't too strong, make sure it isn't too hot. Do not use caustic soda solution as a developer until you know EXACTLY what you're doing - it'll strip the etch resist right off the board if it's even slightly too strong or too warm. Even if your sink unit is made of the highest quality stainless steel, FeCl3 will rot it away, so don't throw your used chemistry down the sink - oh, it'll stain plastic and just about anything else (including your fingers) a bright yellow/orange colour, so don't throw it away down a plastic sink either. Your wife will not be happy if you stain/rot the sink. Trust me, I know......
FeCl3 (ferric chloride) is poisonous and corrosive. If you can afford to use a different etch chemical do so, but if you can only use FeCl3, handle with extreme care.
Mel the Bell does this shit for a living. ask him in case I have forgotten something.
I think this is even better. I'll try to find here in Italy a reseller.
If it is simple as you say, I'll definitely go for that solution.
Thank you dasteph....
In the meanwhile...take a look at this ->http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm#1
I'm very busy these days. I made a try with the iron and the transparency on a white paper.
Seems that works but I have to use a photo paper because the transparency slides while ironing. I'm also considering the UVA method you said but I have to find some time/money to find the bulbs and to build the box.
December has 13 working days for us so I'll try to bump up the project.
Bye!
nessun sbalzi sono sicuro che le cose saranno giuste alla fine.
(Babel Fish translation :) Please ignore it if it's crap)
:wink: Ehehehe, it's not crap but the 2 first words...I would translate back to "nobody jumps, I'm sure that things will be allright at the end".
By the way, have a nice Chirstmas and prosperous New Year....I'm trying hard to find some bucks to get the bulbs.
We have to be patience because I'll not abandon this task....
got big problems getting bulbs. I'm following 2 paths: getting bulbs, contacting some friend of a friend of a friend that has some lab at home & skills.
I tried some "print on transparencies" and then ironing to a paper but they always slide causing the paths to be blurred.
I will probably select the DEATH solution by developing 2 very-very-thin layers and then soldering together.
Anyway this project is not abandoned!!
Sorry for the delay. I'll try to speed up a little bit.
You say about bulbs. I assume UV bulbs? You can use the ones out of an insect killer found in restaurants etc, or a stage effects shop where they are called Black Light bulbs.
Nessun preoccupa il compagno.
Dite circa le lampadine. Ammetto le lampadine UV? Potete usare quei da un assassino dell'insetto trovato in ristoranti ecc, o gli effetti della fase acquistano dove sono denominati lampadine del Black.
OT: sh**t!! I missed the 25th anniversary T-shirt!!
got some news.
I'm building a bromograph (I hope the translation is right) following these instructions: http://www.texsoft.it/index.php?c=electronics&l=it.
Instructions are in italian but schematics are so simple that you can guess how to build it.
I got almost all components so I will be ready to etch some circuits soon.
O.T. I just have returned from my vacations around here http://maps.google.it/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=it&msa=0&msid=114093406099937815687.0000011372902ce9f4c72&ll=43.544069,13.514557&spn=0.248856,0.498505&z=11&om=1, have a nice holydays you too.
I made my own out of a wooden box, some pluga and sockets and a few UV tubes from Maplin :)
In the meanwhile I rechecked my ciurcuits and the keyboard schematics should be ok now.
Will do some tests with NaOH first (to develop) and then FeCl3 (to etch) as DEATH said in some posts.
The bill:
- old broken scanner, free
- n.3 HITACHI F8T5 tubes, 18 EUR
- n.3 neon reactors, 18 EUR
- n.3 starters, 6 EUR
- n.3 starter plugs, 3 EUR
- n.6 neon plugs, 4 EUR
- screws and cables are recycled from other components
TOTAL EUR 50
Awaiting for your comments ;-)
Only one single little thing I'd change. The reflector sheet - white plastic? Change it for tinfoil.
If you get a sheet of cardboard, paint it with a little varnish (or gloss paint), wait for it to be almost dry, and then lay a sheet of aluminium cooking foil over it. It'll stick to the card and be nice and flat ready for you to cut to shape.
Because, if you have anythng in there that glows in UV (like some white things do), you'll be converting half of your UV to white (or whatever) colour, and therefore wasting it.
That has given me a little inspiration to make something similar, I am very impressed with that, it's very professional!
I have a scrap scanner too - dunno why I didn't even consider using it (hangs head in shame).......
I'll glue some aluminium cooking foil over it, cut it following the edge and that's all folks.
Thank you for the suggestion and thank you for the positive comment.
I'm not an electronic hobbyist so, said by you and considering all your skills, it is an honor!
EDIT1: the new look->http://zxkeyboard.virtuale.org/images/7.%20After%20applying%20foil.JPG
EDIT2: I'll add the 20 EUR timer->http://catalogo.cdcelettromeccanica.it/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=25&category_id=43&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=16&lang=it
Please test it and eventually report the problems.
Don't worry, no advertisements or banners or pop-ups.
Thanks!
The only thing I personally would like to see is an English translation on how you converted a scanner into a lightbox.
You have three tubes, three starters - but, only 2 of smething - what are these?
Are those PCB's ones you made yourself or pictures you've "borrowed" from somewhere else? If you made those yourself, some details on exposure times and blind-spots would be good since every light box is different.
My own box, with twin tubes gave adequate exposure in approx 5 minutes for standard "Fotoboard 2" - which seems to be about right. I have 24W (2x12W) eco-bulbs in mine, yours uses three tubes to give how much output?
1) the UV lightbox idea comes from a little browsing in Internet, so I reported the link in my site. I'll write brand new instructions in english soon.
2) can you tell me what you are referring to? In the list I posted 1 week ago I see 3 of something and 6 of something...
I probably missed the correct translations. Reading this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp I probably mean the ballasts.
3) You are probably referring to the examples in the italian link. No, they are not mine, they are examples made by this guy who had the idea.
As soon as I etch my own PCB I'll report everything. For sure I'll use NaOH for developing and FeCl3 for etching.
4) The tubes are 8W so I have 24W just as you. I installed the electro-mechanic timer so I have an adequate precision on timings.
Thanks again for the suggestions.
after months (years) of testings and frustration, family moving, grown child, I have to admit I did not find any easy nor less-than-easy way to put together a self made membrane.
I stucked when I had to build a mask to spray the sticky graphite on the transparent layer...so I ended up buying 3 new membranes for my 3 ZX in UK :-(
My site here http://zxkeyboard.altervista.org/ is abandoned...I feel sad.
:roll: Trying to get the good side of the story, now I can resume my old stuff and with the help of a composite-VGA adaptor I can type LOAD "" again!
Hope that my UV Lightbox can be still useful to you.
Thanks again for the help and support you gave.