Personally I don't see much of a difference between someone being nailed to a cross and then coming back to life, and a great big mothership seeding earth (or whatever the Scientology believe)....one fairy tale is much the same as another..
But comparing Christianity and Scientology..well historically the Christians have done MUCH crazier shit than the Scientologists! (genocide, continuing child abuse etc etc)
Hang on a second, do you think Christianity should be outlawed in the same sense Scientology is in several countries, despite the former providing practical benefits to the community?
It's an undoubted fact that Christianity has done a lot to help people across the world, both in practical terms (such as providing food, shelter, etc, to the needy, and to helping the victims of famine or war), and in spiritual terms (helping people to come to terms with the death of loved ones, or providing comfort to the dying, etc), and many Christians are wonderful people.
But it's also a fact that Christianity has done much harm, all over the world. And I CANNOT see how the pope can be considered a good Christian, since he presides over an organisation that is filfthy rich, and has countless priceless treasures and works of art, whilst countless millions of Christians the world over are starving to death. I'm not having a go at Christianity here, just at some Christians (the bad ones). The same with every religion really, most Muslims hate suicide bombers, but (like Christianity) a few evil hypocrates use the name of God justify their crimes against humanity.
Christianity itself is not evil - it's doctrines of love and forgive thy neighbour, do unto others what you would wish they'd do unto you, don't value material good above spiritual, and so on, are beautiful sentiments, and if we all followed them then this would would be immeasurably better, but some people in the Christian church commit hideous acts (for which surely God will later punish them, so by that logic surely these Christians must not believe punishment will reach them, so probably they don't actually believe in God as they preach him?) and these people sometimes imbue Christianity with the same attributes of a religion.
A cult:
- gains it's members using any method possible
- holds on to it's members as strongly as it can
- takes money/property etc from it's members
- tries to control it's members
- gives unproven docterines to it's members
- encourages it's members to either convert their friends and family to the cult or, failing that, to break off all contact with them.
Scientology does all of these things. And yes, Christianity nowadays either does not do any particular item in this list, or does it much less strongly than it used to. But consider that in the past:
- gains it's members using any method possible - The crusades, forcably converting entire lands to Christianity and putting to death anyone who wouldn't convert.
- holds on to it's members as strongly as it can - I can't really think of anything in this catagory that discredits the Catholic church, it does like to keep hold of it's followers, but to the best of my knowledge it's never hurt in any way anyone who tried to leave. However, I don't doubt that it has done so, particularly in the darker ages.
- takes money/property etc from it's members - How do you think the Catholic church came to be the most powerful religion in the world? On their deathbed, rich people were told that they'd be forgiven all their sins, and given unconditional entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, provided they signed over all their property to the Catholic church.
- tries to control it's members - "Don't use contraceptives, don't eat fish on Friday, you MUST go to church on Sunday" etc. Minor control, certainly, but no doubt if I knew more about the history of Christianity I would be aware of some real horrors.
- gives unproven docterines to it's members - Do I need to type anything here
- encourages it's members to either convert their friends and family to the cult or, failing that, to break off all contact with them. - To be fair, I can't think of anything too bad here, yes Christians are encouraged to convert non-Christians, but by itself that's fine, as long as no force or deception is encouraged.
I'm not singling out Christianity, of course, religion has always been used to control people, and to benefit the leaders with both money and power.
Scientology does so, however, far more strongly than the main religions do nowadays (the main religions, after all, have decent, pious believers in all staged of their hirarchy, but Scientology can have none since it's so obviously just a scam).
Personally I don't see much of a difference between someone being nailed to a cross and then coming back to life, and a great big mothership seeding earth (or whatever the Scientology believe)....one fairy tale is much the same as another..
Yes, they both seem very unlikely, and there's no proof for either, but my point is that since Scientology does not refer to a God (the creator(s) of everything that exists) then it's not a religion (a religion by definition has to be based around the belief in a God) yet the people who run Scientology mislead people by calling it a religion, when it clearly is not.
But comparing Christianity and Scientology..well historically the Christians have done MUCH crazier shit than the Scientologists! (genocide, continuing child abuse etc etc)
Again, true. But nowadays the Christian church does not advocate war by Christians against non-believers, does not advocate torture or murder of non-believers, etc. It's many hideous crimes are almost entirely in the past (which does not dimish their evil by one atom, but my point is that the people (or rather "total bastards") who caused this evil are long dead, and the present Christian leaders are, on the outside at least, decent people). I don't deny that it's likely that some of them still commit evil crimes (especially against children) and they should be exposed (and tortued and executed if it was up to me, the same with all child molesters), but the Christian churches do not, so far as I know, practise blackmail, mindwashing, extortion, etc, that Scientology does.
Nowadays at least, Christian leaders don't tell a member of their congregation that they must either convert their non-Christian friend's and family, or else break off contact with them forever. Christian priests, when they hear confidental talk or confession, don't later use that information to blackmail the congrigation, Christian preachers don't charge money to tell you "the truth". Go into a Christian church and listen to a sermon, or go to confession, or talk to a priest, and he won't charge you. Yet Scientologists charges tens of thousands of dollars to tell you "the truth" about life.
Real religions have good and bad people in them, and are used by those people to both help and hurt their followers and others, but Scientology exists only to gain money and power for it's leaders. It has no other purpose.
Er... Roman Catholism is a branch of Christianity (the clue is that it is based upon the belief and worship of Jesus Christ, hence the name "Christianity").
Yes, they both seem very unlikely, and there's no proof for either, but my point is that since Scientology does not refer to a God (the creator(s) of everything that exists) then it's not a religion (a religion by definition has to be based around the belief in a God) yet the people who run Scientology mislead people by calling it a religion, when it clearly is not.
Umm that's an opinion not a given..
..who decides which fairy tale is acceptable...humans? surely it should be a divine decision :). There is no one that has the authority to say 'religion has to have a defined god'. Wicca is accepted as a religion and that has no single defined god' Hindu has many gods not a single defined one, Buddhism as someone else mentioned etc etc.....Religion is a belief in a 'way to live', not necessarily a belief in a 'master being'.
To say a religion MUST have a divine being is a human rule...and therefore is open to opinion.
How can any court say one persons beliefs are valid and one isn't (it's a personal choice).....if Scientology is 'outlawed' then that will open the floodgates....prove your religion or it become illegal etc....there will be no religion!
Religion: A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
Again, true. But nowadays the Christian church does not advocate war by Christians against non-believers, does not advocate torture or murder of non-believers, etc.
Neither does Scientology..the difference being....Scientology NEVER has....Christianity has. Something should be measured on it's history..not just what they are doing now....
'Oh I used to be a serial killer but I gave that up years ago so I'm cool now'
To 'charge' Scientology with 'crimes' that virtually ALL religions have been guilty of, and not charge the others is ridiculous.
Last time I checked people are still being killed because of the major religions....you think the troubles in the gulf have nothing to do with a different belief system?! .... if everyone was the same religion....there would be less wars.
Neither does Scientology..the difference being....Scientology NEVER has....Christianity has. Something should be measured on it's history..not just what they are doing now....
'Oh I used to be a serial killer but I gave that up years ago so I'm cool now'
your average chistrian doesn't live for two thousand years though. are we to judge countries by the same standards? if so that would be the population, ergo you would be guilty of slavery, you meanie!
your average chistrian doesn't live for two thousand years though. are we to judge countries by the same standards? if so that would be the population, ergo you would be guilty of slavery, you meanie!
Might want to check your history on that...its less than 2000yrs since the Christians committed murder...
My point is to charge one religion and not another...when they are ALL fairytales and (generally) personal choice. Is as stupid as believing in them in the first place! (and it will be seen as a test case, outlaw scientology and the Scientology will the bring the same charges against Christianity etc......and how are they going to prove their case? :lol: )
No, it's a fact. The definition of religion is that it is based upon the belief in a God or gods. That's not an opinion.
..who decides which fairy tale is acceptable...humans? surely it should be a divine decision :). There is no one that has the authority to say 'religion has to have a defined god'. Wicca is accepted as a religion and that has no single defined god' Hindu has many gods not a single defined one,
A religion can have more than one god. Many religions do.
Buddhism as someone else mentioned etc etc.....Religion is a belief in a 'way to live', not necessarily a belief in a 'master being'.
No, a philosophy is a way to live. A religion is based around a God, and the worship/study/belief etc in that God.
To say a religion MUST have a divine being is a human rule...and therefore is open to opinion.
No, it's not a rule, it's a definition. Would you class a rock (a small stone that you picked up on a beach) as as a mammal? Of course not, since the definition of a mammal is that it breathe in oxygen and exhales carbon dioxide, it has a cardio-vascular system, is warm blooded, has a skeleton surrounded by skin, muscle, veins, etc. And a stone does not conform to this human made definition (it's humans who invented the term "mammal" and gave it a definition).
How can any court say one persons beliefs are valid and one isn't (it's a personal choice).....if Scientology is 'outlawed' then that will open the floodgates....prove your religion or it become illegal etc....there will be no religion!
I'm not saying that Scientology's beliefs are wrong (I think that they are, but I can't be 100% sure, just like I can never be sure that I am awake and typing this now, it might be a very vivid dream - can you prove otherwise?), I am saying:
1) Scientology is not a religion
and
2) It exists purely to gather money and power for it's leaders, and it is willing to hurt both those who follow it and those who oppose it, in the process.
No, it's a fact. The definition of religion is that it is based upon the belief in a God or gods. That's not an opinion.
A fact about a fiary tale...how amusing...I have a different opinion...prove to me I am wrong :lol: (and not by quoting others OPINIONS)
BTW...see my quote....the definition of religion according to the dictionary..fits my description ..no mention in that one of a superior being.
No, a philosophy is a way to live. A religion is based around a God, and the worship/study/belief etc in that God.
Again...according to who and who empowered them to make that desicison for the whole of mankind?
The whole premise of religion is that you either believe in YOURS or you don't. If you are Christian then other religions are 'not real'.......HOW can a Christian court system judge another religion fairly??? the whole thing is laughable.
Here is another thought...
Most religions were formed in blood or a different set of 'rules' than they follow now....Christianity for example.
Scientology is a NEW religion (not 2000yrs in the making).
Do you recall how Christians were persecuted at the 'start' of that religion...and outlawed....hmmmmm see where I am going with that?
No, it's not a rule, it's a definition. Would you class a rock (a small stone that you picked up on a beach) as as a mammal? Of course not, since the definition of a mammal is that it breathe in oxygen and exhales carbon dioxide, it has a cardio-vascular system, is warm blooded, has a skeleton surrounded by skin, muscle, veins, etc. And a stone does not conform to this human made definition (it's humans who invented the term "mammal" and gave it a definition).
You are not trying to use actual proven things with faith based things are you?...bad example. ALL religion is unprovable...therefore it is all ultimately based on someone/some group of peoples beliefs/opinions.....and again.....opinions are like assholes.
No, it's a fact. The definition of religion is that it is based upon the belief in a God or gods. That's not an opinion..
OK, on points of pedantry...the Cambridge English Dictionary would disagree with you (and whoever it was who said a god had to be immortal). From the dictionary:
religion (noun)
1 [C or U] the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship
(my emphasis). The important word here is "or", as in religion can be based on worship of a god or gods, OR any such system of belief. That would seem to include scientology.
Note that "cult" and "religion" are not mutually exclusive, a religion can be a cult.
On the subject of a god, there's no reason why the scientology spaceship guy(s) can't be considered as such. The English language does not require a god to actually be immortal. The Cambridge English dictionary defines a god as:
god
1 a spirit or being believed to control some part of the universe or life and often worshipped for doing so, or a representation of this spirit or being:
There is no mention of immortality here.
We are also supposed to live in a free country under the rule of law. While Scientology is, well, idiotic in my opinion, and perhaps dangerous, if it is within the law we can't just ban it because some people take offence. I think Microsoft is evil, but I recognise that it's not doing (much) illegal, and what it has been doing that is illegal has been brought to court, and they have been successfully prosecuted and fined for it. If the scientologists do the same, I hope they get prosecuted. Just as I hope there are some prosecutions to come out of the Catholic Church investigations in Ireland.
At the end of the day, organized religions are just political power structures like anything else, the belief in a god or not is irrelevant to how they operate - like any other political organization or company, they operate to spread their "memes" (a bit like life forms try to spread their genes) and to stay alive, and beat out the competition. People's personal beliefs and the machinations of organized religion shouldn't be confused, they are different.
(Declaration of interest - I don't belive in any god, I don't belong to any religion. Well, I may invoke the Flying Spaghetti Monster every so often, bless His Noodly Appendages).
It always amuses me that people try to quote laws and what is 'accepted' when talking about what religion is legit and which isn't...and mentioning 'facts'
To a non religious person (myself for example) they are all bollocks, all as stupid as the next one....and Star Trek is about as believable (and we do have personal communicators now).
You are quoting rules/laws/belief by one set of people against another! Who decides which one is right???
Until one side can 100% prove their 'religion' is legit/real then the are 100% in the same boat.
A French (Christian) court listening to a case on the legitimacy of another religion....what a farce! Glad I am not a French tax payer.
A French (Christian) court listening to a case on the legitimacy of another religion....what a farce! Glad I am not a French tax payer.
The way I see it, the state should only get involved if they want to give out perks to officially recognized religions - tax breaks, etc. Anything other than that is telling people what to believe.
A friend of mine here is training to be a Pastor for the Baptist Church (Christian). We have had many many discussions on Christianity etc...
He has for years given 10% of his wages to his church (garnished directly from his bank account). Here in the South this is a common practice and although voluntary they are 'morally forced' by the church and peer pressure to do it.
How is that different than Scientology?...Scientology just do it in a more direct way.
(Not even going to start on Evangelical Christians!...give money now or go to hell!)
(Not even going to start on Evangelical Christians!...give money now or go to hell!)
Wonder if Boozy's picture of that billboard "Go to Church or the Devil Will Get You" was one of theirs...
As for tithes, I know the Mormon Church demands that (and I know someone who got excommunicated from the Mormon Church). Their God on Earth flies around in a Gulfstream 5 bizjet... organized religion is often just about power and money.
Reminds me of a time a bunch of those performing artist type street preachers were going to call the police on an old mate of mine because they told him he had to "See" god and they had, so my mate started demanding to be taken for an audience with him.
Then they started saying stuff like well "we can't take you there, you have to take yourself through faith". So my friend was straining and saying "I believe! I believe!....it's not working!", in the end we had completely ruined their show they were putting on, 2 of them had already removed their costumes and gave up and they started threatening to call the police if we didn't leave them alone.
You could say we were being dicks but they started it all by claiming to have seen god, my friend just wanted confirmation, and they couldn't deliver. Personally I don't think he was in the wrong to demand an answer to one of lifes biggest mysteries from somebody who apparently had seen god therefore knew he existed.
Sorry beanz, but Christian churches do not host life changing tech courses that cost you ALL your life savings...nice try, though.
No?...So only taking some of your money for a Fantasy is ok? and claiming the ability to heal is not 'life changing...damn, many non-religion places teach 'life changing (dieting/giving up drugs/alcohol etc)'?
Do some research into Evangelical Christians here in the US...Benny Hinn is a great one to start with!.......
.....................
More to be found on the wiki entry....(or by watching his bullshit tv channel)
By far the most controversial aspect of Hinn's ministry is his claim to have the "anointing", the special power given to him by God to heal the sick. At Hinn's Miracle Crusades, he has allegedly healed attendees of blindness, deafness, cancer, AIDS, and severe physical injuries. Since 1993, however, investigative news reports by programs such as Inside Edition, Dateline NBC, the Australian edition of 60 Minutes, and several network affiliates in the United States have called these claims into question. (edit: no shit!)
Hinn made a number of unfulfilled (religious) prophecies for the 90s, such as God will destroy America's homosexual community in 1995 or the death of Fidel Castro,[8] election of the first female president of the USA,[9] the East Coast of the United States will be devastated by earthquakes,[8] etc., all before the third millennium. Hinn also appeared on the Trinity Broadcasting Network in October 1999 to claim that God had given him a vision that thousands of dead people would be resurrected after watching the network -- laying out a scenario of people placing their dead loved ones' hands on TV screens tuned into the station -- and that TBN would be "an extension of Heaven to Earth."
In April 2001 HBO aired a documentary called "A Question of Miracles" on Hinn and fellow faith healer Reinhard Bonnke. [10] The director Antony Thomas told CNN's Kyra Phillips that they did not find cases where people were healed by Hinn.[11] Thomas told the New York Times about Hinn's claims, "If I had seen miracles, I would have been happy to trumpet it . . . but in retrospect, I think they do more damage to Christianity than the most committed atheist."[12]
In 2002, Joe Nickell of the Skeptical Inquirer wrote a critical analysis of Hinn's healing claims.[1] Nickell cited information that Hinn's cures have not been documented by independent reviews, and said "there is a danger that people who believe themselves cured will forsake medical assistance that could bring them relief or even save their lives."[1]
In March 2005, Ministry Watch, an independent evangelical organization which reviews Christian ministries for financial transparency and efficiency and advises potential donors accordingly, issued a Donor Alert stating that "the reported exorbitant spending of the Hinn family reveals that BHM has far more money than it needs to carry out its ministry" and advising Christians to "prayerfully consider withholding contributions to Benny Hinn" while praying for his restoration and repentance.[13] Benny Hinn Ministries is not a member of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.[14]
Wonder if Boozy's picture of that billboard "Go to Church or the Devil Will Get You" was one of theirs...
As for tithes, I know the Mormon Church demands that (and I know someone who got excommunicated from the Mormon Church). Their God on Earth flies around in a Gulfstream 5 bizjet... organized religion is often just about power and money.
Apparently the guy who owns the field put it up, he's a bit of a nutjob supposedly? I don't know if it was Andrew Rollings that told me that or someone else who's seen it before?
Sorry beanz, but Christian churches do not host life changing tech courses that cost you ALL your life savings...nice try, though.
It's only a difference in degree. The Mormon Church takes enough of its followers so its leader gets to fly around the world in a luxury business jet. It's just a different business model. The Church of Scientology does it on a small number of customers for a very high price, but the Mormon church (which is Christian - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) goes for bulk selling with lower margins. The LDS church also goes in for cult-like practises like having your whole family disown you if you decide to leave the Church. In Salt Lake City this is a serious thing because most of the people you know are probably Mormon if you were born into a Mormon family - essentially, it's a Christian church using coercion to keep members.
Sorry you think he's an evangelical. Evangelicals would distance themselves from him.
He is 'accepted' as an evangelist. Either way...he is a Christian, has a HUGE worldwide following, takes money, claims he can heal and perform mircales.....I'm not seeing a big difference here between him and anything Scientology does....and remember he is one out of MANY evangelists over here...I wish you could get the Trinity broadcast network over there (maybe you can?)....watch it for a couple hours and then tell me it's not about the money :)
Comments
But comparing Christianity and Scientology..well historically the Christians have done MUCH crazier shit than the Scientologists! (genocide, continuing child abuse etc etc)
It's an undoubted fact that Christianity has done a lot to help people across the world, both in practical terms (such as providing food, shelter, etc, to the needy, and to helping the victims of famine or war), and in spiritual terms (helping people to come to terms with the death of loved ones, or providing comfort to the dying, etc), and many Christians are wonderful people.
But it's also a fact that Christianity has done much harm, all over the world. And I CANNOT see how the pope can be considered a good Christian, since he presides over an organisation that is filfthy rich, and has countless priceless treasures and works of art, whilst countless millions of Christians the world over are starving to death. I'm not having a go at Christianity here, just at some Christians (the bad ones). The same with every religion really, most Muslims hate suicide bombers, but (like Christianity) a few evil hypocrates use the name of God justify their crimes against humanity.
Christianity itself is not evil - it's doctrines of love and forgive thy neighbour, do unto others what you would wish they'd do unto you, don't value material good above spiritual, and so on, are beautiful sentiments, and if we all followed them then this would would be immeasurably better, but some people in the Christian church commit hideous acts (for which surely God will later punish them, so by that logic surely these Christians must not believe punishment will reach them, so probably they don't actually believe in God as they preach him?) and these people sometimes imbue Christianity with the same attributes of a religion.
A cult:
- gains it's members using any method possible
- holds on to it's members as strongly as it can
- takes money/property etc from it's members
- tries to control it's members
- gives unproven docterines to it's members
- encourages it's members to either convert their friends and family to the cult or, failing that, to break off all contact with them.
Scientology does all of these things. And yes, Christianity nowadays either does not do any particular item in this list, or does it much less strongly than it used to. But consider that in the past:
- gains it's members using any method possible - The crusades, forcably converting entire lands to Christianity and putting to death anyone who wouldn't convert.
- holds on to it's members as strongly as it can - I can't really think of anything in this catagory that discredits the Catholic church, it does like to keep hold of it's followers, but to the best of my knowledge it's never hurt in any way anyone who tried to leave. However, I don't doubt that it has done so, particularly in the darker ages.
- takes money/property etc from it's members - How do you think the Catholic church came to be the most powerful religion in the world? On their deathbed, rich people were told that they'd be forgiven all their sins, and given unconditional entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, provided they signed over all their property to the Catholic church.
- tries to control it's members - "Don't use contraceptives, don't eat fish on Friday, you MUST go to church on Sunday" etc. Minor control, certainly, but no doubt if I knew more about the history of Christianity I would be aware of some real horrors.
- gives unproven docterines to it's members - Do I need to type anything here
- encourages it's members to either convert their friends and family to the cult or, failing that, to break off all contact with them. - To be fair, I can't think of anything too bad here, yes Christians are encouraged to convert non-Christians, but by itself that's fine, as long as no force or deception is encouraged.
I'm not singling out Christianity, of course, religion has always been used to control people, and to benefit the leaders with both money and power.
Scientology does so, however, far more strongly than the main religions do nowadays (the main religions, after all, have decent, pious believers in all staged of their hirarchy, but Scientology can have none since it's so obviously just a scam).
Neither can I, considering he's a Catholic :p
- gains it's members using any method possible - Christianity/Islam have been guilty of this
- holds on to it's members as strongly as it can - ditto
- takes money/property etc from it's members - ditto
- tries to control it's members - ditto
- gives unproven docterines to it's members - ditto...all religion is faith based...
Those rules could be applied to pretty much ALL accepted religions...
EDIT: OH as you were pointing out! :lol:
Yes, they both seem very unlikely, and there's no proof for either, but my point is that since Scientology does not refer to a God (the creator(s) of everything that exists) then it's not a religion (a religion by definition has to be based around the belief in a God) yet the people who run Scientology mislead people by calling it a religion, when it clearly is not.
Again, true. But nowadays the Christian church does not advocate war by Christians against non-believers, does not advocate torture or murder of non-believers, etc. It's many hideous crimes are almost entirely in the past (which does not dimish their evil by one atom, but my point is that the people (or rather "total bastards") who caused this evil are long dead, and the present Christian leaders are, on the outside at least, decent people). I don't deny that it's likely that some of them still commit evil crimes (especially against children) and they should be exposed (and tortued and executed if it was up to me, the same with all child molesters), but the Christian churches do not, so far as I know, practise blackmail, mindwashing, extortion, etc, that Scientology does.
Nowadays at least, Christian leaders don't tell a member of their congregation that they must either convert their non-Christian friend's and family, or else break off contact with them forever. Christian priests, when they hear confidental talk or confession, don't later use that information to blackmail the congrigation, Christian preachers don't charge money to tell you "the truth". Go into a Christian church and listen to a sermon, or go to confession, or talk to a priest, and he won't charge you. Yet Scientologists charges tens of thousands of dollars to tell you "the truth" about life.
Real religions have good and bad people in them, and are used by those people to both help and hurt their followers and others, but Scientology exists only to gain money and power for it's leaders. It has no other purpose.
Er... Roman Catholism is a branch of Christianity (the clue is that it is based upon the belief and worship of Jesus Christ, hence the name "Christianity").
Umm that's an opinion not a given..
..who decides which fairy tale is acceptable...humans? surely it should be a divine decision :). There is no one that has the authority to say 'religion has to have a defined god'. Wicca is accepted as a religion and that has no single defined god' Hindu has many gods not a single defined one, Buddhism as someone else mentioned etc etc.....Religion is a belief in a 'way to live', not necessarily a belief in a 'master being'.
To say a religion MUST have a divine being is a human rule...and therefore is open to opinion.
How can any court say one persons beliefs are valid and one isn't (it's a personal choice).....if Scientology is 'outlawed' then that will open the floodgates....prove your religion or it become illegal etc....there will be no religion!
Religion: A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
Neither does Scientology..the difference being....Scientology NEVER has....Christianity has. Something should be measured on it's history..not just what they are doing now....
'Oh I used to be a serial killer but I gave that up years ago so I'm cool now'
To 'charge' Scientology with 'crimes' that virtually ALL religions have been guilty of, and not charge the others is ridiculous.
Last time I checked people are still being killed because of the major religions....you think the troubles in the gulf have nothing to do with a different belief system?! .... if everyone was the same religion....there would be less wars.
your average chistrian doesn't live for two thousand years though. are we to judge countries by the same standards? if so that would be the population, ergo you would be guilty of slavery, you meanie!
Might want to check your history on that...its less than 2000yrs since the Christians committed murder...
My point is to charge one religion and not another...when they are ALL fairytales and (generally) personal choice. Is as stupid as believing in them in the first place! (and it will be seen as a test case, outlaw scientology and the Scientology will the bring the same charges against Christianity etc......and how are they going to prove their case? :lol: )
well done for completly missing my point.
you can't judge how people act based on 2000 (or as you see it, when they went bad) years of history.
A fact about a fiary tale...how amusing...I have a different opinion...prove to me I am wrong :lol: (and not by quoting others OPINIONS)
BTW...see my quote....the definition of religion according to the dictionary..fits my description ..no mention in that one of a superior being.
Again...according to who and who empowered them to make that desicison for the whole of mankind?
The whole premise of religion is that you either believe in YOURS or you don't. If you are Christian then other religions are 'not real'.......HOW can a Christian court system judge another religion fairly??? the whole thing is laughable.
Here is another thought...
Most religions were formed in blood or a different set of 'rules' than they follow now....Christianity for example.
Scientology is a NEW religion (not 2000yrs in the making).
Do you recall how Christians were persecuted at the 'start' of that religion...and outlawed....hmmmmm see where I am going with that?
You are not trying to use actual proven things with faith based things are you?...bad example. ALL religion is unprovable...therefore it is all ultimately based on someone/some group of peoples beliefs/opinions.....and again.....opinions are like assholes.
blame the jews? :grin:
To a non religious person (myself for example) they are all bollocks, all as stupid as the next one....and Star Trek is about as believable (and we do have personal communicators now).
You are quoting rules/laws/belief by one set of people against another! Who decides which one is right???
Until one side can 100% prove their 'religion' is legit/real then the are 100% in the same boat.
A French (Christian) court listening to a case on the legitimacy of another religion....what a farce! Glad I am not a French tax payer.
The way I see it, the state should only get involved if they want to give out perks to officially recognized religions - tax breaks, etc. Anything other than that is telling people what to believe.
A friend of mine here is training to be a Pastor for the Baptist Church (Christian). We have had many many discussions on Christianity etc...
He has for years given 10% of his wages to his church (garnished directly from his bank account). Here in the South this is a common practice and although voluntary they are 'morally forced' by the church and peer pressure to do it.
How is that different than Scientology?...Scientology just do it in a more direct way.
(Not even going to start on Evangelical Christians!...give money now or go to hell!)
Wonder if Boozy's picture of that billboard "Go to Church or the Devil Will Get You" was one of theirs...
As for tithes, I know the Mormon Church demands that (and I know someone who got excommunicated from the Mormon Church). Their God on Earth flies around in a Gulfstream 5 bizjet... organized religion is often just about power and money.
Then they started saying stuff like well "we can't take you there, you have to take yourself through faith". So my friend was straining and saying "I believe! I believe!....it's not working!", in the end we had completely ruined their show they were putting on, 2 of them had already removed their costumes and gave up and they started threatening to call the police if we didn't leave them alone.
You could say we were being dicks but they started it all by claiming to have seen god, my friend just wanted confirmation, and they couldn't deliver. Personally I don't think he was in the wrong to demand an answer to one of lifes biggest mysteries from somebody who apparently had seen god therefore knew he existed.
No?...So only taking some of your money for a Fantasy is ok? and claiming the ability to heal is not 'life changing...damn, many non-religion places teach 'life changing (dieting/giving up drugs/alcohol etc)'?
Do some research into Evangelical Christians here in the US...Benny Hinn is a great one to start with!.......
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More to be found on the wiki entry....(or by watching his bullshit tv channel)
By far the most controversial aspect of Hinn's ministry is his claim to have the "anointing", the special power given to him by God to heal the sick. At Hinn's Miracle Crusades, he has allegedly healed attendees of blindness, deafness, cancer, AIDS, and severe physical injuries. Since 1993, however, investigative news reports by programs such as Inside Edition, Dateline NBC, the Australian edition of 60 Minutes, and several network affiliates in the United States have called these claims into question. (edit: no shit!)
Hinn made a number of unfulfilled (religious) prophecies for the 90s, such as God will destroy America's homosexual community in 1995 or the death of Fidel Castro,[8] election of the first female president of the USA,[9] the East Coast of the United States will be devastated by earthquakes,[8] etc., all before the third millennium. Hinn also appeared on the Trinity Broadcasting Network in October 1999 to claim that God had given him a vision that thousands of dead people would be resurrected after watching the network -- laying out a scenario of people placing their dead loved ones' hands on TV screens tuned into the station -- and that TBN would be "an extension of Heaven to Earth."
In April 2001 HBO aired a documentary called "A Question of Miracles" on Hinn and fellow faith healer Reinhard Bonnke. [10] The director Antony Thomas told CNN's Kyra Phillips that they did not find cases where people were healed by Hinn.[11] Thomas told the New York Times about Hinn's claims, "If I had seen miracles, I would have been happy to trumpet it . . . but in retrospect, I think they do more damage to Christianity than the most committed atheist."[12]
In 2002, Joe Nickell of the Skeptical Inquirer wrote a critical analysis of Hinn's healing claims.[1] Nickell cited information that Hinn's cures have not been documented by independent reviews, and said "there is a danger that people who believe themselves cured will forsake medical assistance that could bring them relief or even save their lives."[1]
In March 2005, Ministry Watch, an independent evangelical organization which reviews Christian ministries for financial transparency and efficiency and advises potential donors accordingly, issued a Donor Alert stating that "the reported exorbitant spending of the Hinn family reveals that BHM has far more money than it needs to carry out its ministry" and advising Christians to "prayerfully consider withholding contributions to Benny Hinn" while praying for his restoration and repentance.[13] Benny Hinn Ministries is not a member of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.[14]
Apparently the guy who owns the field put it up, he's a bit of a nutjob supposedly? I don't know if it was Andrew Rollings that told me that or someone else who's seen it before?
Benny Hinn has a key to Kathryn Kuhlman's grave, and he visits there to get some of her spirit.
Seriously, the guy is nuts. The bible even forbids necromancy.
Sorry you think he's an evangelical. Evangelicals would distance themselves from him.
It's only a difference in degree. The Mormon Church takes enough of its followers so its leader gets to fly around the world in a luxury business jet. It's just a different business model. The Church of Scientology does it on a small number of customers for a very high price, but the Mormon church (which is Christian - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) goes for bulk selling with lower margins. The LDS church also goes in for cult-like practises like having your whole family disown you if you decide to leave the Church. In Salt Lake City this is a serious thing because most of the people you know are probably Mormon if you were born into a Mormon family - essentially, it's a Christian church using coercion to keep members.
It's a misrepresentation to say the Prophet of the Mormon church is their 'god on earth' - they do not believe this. (no I'm not Mormon)
He is 'accepted' as an evangelist. Either way...he is a Christian, has a HUGE worldwide following, takes money, claims he can heal and perform mircales.....I'm not seeing a big difference here between him and anything Scientology does....and remember he is one out of MANY evangelists over here...I wish you could get the Trinity broadcast network over there (maybe you can?)....watch it for a couple hours and then tell me it's not about the money :)
Still can't see the connection with Scientology. Unless you stretch it to breaking point?