Why do people go around trying to connect Christianity to bizarre variants of it?
It's a misrepresentation to say the Prophet of the Mormon church is their 'god on earth' - they do not believe this. (no I'm not Mormon)
The LDS church is still a Christian Church, and whether the Prophet is their "god on earth" or not matters not one whit to the point I was making. The point I was making is that their leader gets to fly around in an expensive luxury business jet thanks in part to the tithes taken from followers (who by contrast have to slum it on SouthWest Airlines and have the TSA frisk them). The LDS church is extremely rich and powerful in Utah, and the consequences of someone born into a Mormon family trying to leave can be severe.
These kinds of things are not unique to the LDS church - most other sections of Christianity have been pretty coercive over the ages, some more recently than others (take a look at the Catholic church in Ireland). Organized religion is all about power, money and politics, even the inoffensive forms of Christianity are such, just to a lesser degree. Indeed, all organized religion is to some extent about power, money and politics. Find an example of one that isn't (well, except perhaps for the Flying Spaghetti Monster) and I'll eat my hat.
Why do people go around trying to connect Christianity to bizarre variants of it?
It's a misrepresentation to say the Prophet of the Mormon church is their 'god on earth' - they do not believe this. (no I'm not Mormon)
Which Variant is the legit one? they are all bizarre to me......You are aware how many variants of Christianity there are??? Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc etc etc...
Again, you cannot say 100% one persons belief is wrong and another is right without proving it! That is the main point no one seems to get. So please prove to me your religion and variant thereof is the legit one and I will accept it...
I'm sorry? Hinn asks for money, and you think that's stealing?
Scientology asks for money and you think that is?
And before you say it....people are not 'forced' to join scientology to give them all their money...they do have the choice. I have been approached a few times over here and said 'no'.....I was not abducted/tortured...had all my money taken by them.
So yeah...benny asks for money, Scientology asks for money, the 'legit' christan church asks for money....'if you want to be in our gang here are the rules'.........you as a person either accept them or you don't.
Whats the difference...you have the choice, is Scientology at fault if stupid people say 'yes ok'?
I'm going to go with personal responsibility.
EDIT: To answer your question more directly. In my opinion yes it is stealing....Religion is a con, money gained from a con is stealing imo (or fraud I guess would be a better word).
The guy I work with who has OCD is a devout christian, and a night or so ago at work I think I may have destroyed his faith?
He asked me something about fire and brimstone and lava coming up from the depths of hell? I was like "I'm not going down this road with you, because you're likely to end up offended". So he asked me something about hell and the centre of the earth anyway, to which I laughed in his face no the centre of the earth has a core then several layers going outwards until you get to where we are basically. Then he was on about thunder and god being angry. By this stage I was creased up and trying to keep a straight face, anyway to cut a long story short. It ended with me saying "No offense but I think the bible's bullshit, and I don't really believe in god".
He then said "Well do you believe in the devil then?".
I said no to that as well, so he had to pry he said "Well if you don't believe in god surely you believe in the devil".
So I said to him "No I don't the devil can't exist without god or there would be no balance between good and evil, I don't believe in either". So he said "Well why don't you believe in the devil?". I said "Because the devil is something invented hundreds maybe thousands of years ago to control and scare people into behaving themselves!!!!".
He stopped and looked around, then said "so you're saying the bible is bullshit then?".
I said "I think so".
He said "Is it?".
I said "that's for you to decide for yourself".
Thing is he has OCD and a comprehension deficit, so you sometimes have to tell him something 3 or 4 times before it sinks in, but he stopped right away there, like he was thinking, and I mean really thinking.
He hasn't mentioned god since, he normally does at least once a night to which I usually humour him, with a quick "MMMMMM HMMMMM :roll:".
So what was he created to do, because he was created, be it by man or god?
...and as for it having nothing to do with scientology...well from the looks of things 2/3rds of the thread so far hasn't really got anything to do with scientology.
It seems to have reverted to the usual bollocks within' 3 pages as usual, so I figured I'd tell a story.
Take it or leave it, doesn't bother me either way, that's my beliefs my opinion, there's no "One almighty god", and there's no devil to conteract him.
I won't be swayed on those, just like you won't be swayed on yours.
Simple as really.
If I was going to believe in a religion of any kind it would be something older and wiser than todays farcical fairy tales. But 200 years ago or more I'd have been put to death for saying such things.
Don't you just love freedom of speech....well what's left of it anyway :roll:
OK, on points of pedantry...the Cambridge English Dictionary would disagree with you (and whoever it was who said a god had to be immortal). From the dictionary:
I define God as the creator of the universe, nothing less. Not that I necessarily believe in His existance, but I can't be sure that he doesn't exist either, I've never seen proof either way.
The important word here is "or", as in religion can be based on worship of a god or gods, OR any such system of belief. That would seem to include scientology.
No, I believe firmly that a religion has to be based around a God, not a being(s) with (however vastly) superior powers. A worship of Superman, if he existed, would not be a religion. Well, not to me, though no doubt some members of that group would call it a religion.
Note that "cult" and "religion" are not mutually exclusive, a religion can be a cult.
Absolutely true, although a cult is not neccessarily a religion.
On the subject of a god, there's no reason why the scientology spaceship guy(s) can't be considered as such. The English language does not require a god to actually be immortal. The Cambridge English dictionary defines a god as:
A god (to me) has to be beyond the universal laws as we know them, since he created those laws, therefore (to me) a true god would be immortal, at least in our terms.
My opinion, granted, but that's how I see it.
We are also supposed to live in a free country under the rule of law. While Scientology is, well, idiotic in my opinion, and perhaps dangerous, if it is within the law we can't just ban it because some people take offence. I think Microsoft is evil, but I recognise that it's not doing (much) illegal, and what it has been doing that is illegal has been brought to court, and they have been successfully prosecuted and fined for it. If the scientologists do the same, I hope they get prosecuted. Just as I hope there are some prosecutions to come out of the Catholic Church investigations in Ireland.
I'm not saying that Scientology should be banned because it offends me. If I wanted it banned just because it offended me then I'd also want all lawyers, all politicians, Graham Norton, most TV adverts, most so called celebrities and the royle family (the Windsors, not the Royles) banned too.
I want Scientology banned as it is criminal and immoral. Yes, parts of all religions might be like that (and the Catholic church has long protected paediophile priests, which is appallign beyond words, especially from such a supposedly moral organisition), and those involved should be arrested and either imprisoned for life or executed, but:
a) real religions, such as Catholicism, do good around the world, unlike Scientology,
and
b) my post was only about Scientology. I never intended anyone to bring other (real) religions into it, as I've seen before how religion divides us up on these forums.
It always amuses me that people try to quote laws and what is 'accepted' when talking about what religion is legit and which isn't...and mentioning 'facts'
It's a fact that Christianity is called Christianity. It's a fact that the pope exists. It's a fact that priests are human, and therefore range from very good to extremely evil. There are facts in religion (though not, perhaps, in the preachings of religion).
To a non religious person (myself for example) they are all bollocks, all as stupid as the next one....and Star Trek is about as believable (and we do have personal communicators now).
Can you prove that there is no god? Or that Jesus didn't exist? Of course not. I believe in evolution, I don't believe that Adam and Eve came into existance as they were, and that we are all descended from those two (first) humans. I don't believe in the forty days and night of rain that killed everything that wasn't on Noah's ark. But even if Christianity and all other religions are false, that doesn't mean that God himself doesn't exist. On the other hand, there is no proof at all (that I can see) that God does exist. Godmay or may not exist. Religions do exist. And Scientology is not a religion.
You are quoting rules/laws/belief by one set of people against another! Who decides which one is right???
You could say that about anything. Who is to say that homosexuality is wrong or right? Or if women should be allowed to speak to men that they aren't related to (in some cultures, this is not allowed). Or maybe we should bring back slavery?
Ultimately, all we can do is make decisions based on morality (as we see it). And hope for the best...
Until one side can 100% prove their 'religion' is legit/real then the are 100% in the same boat.
True, but then atheists can't prove that God doesn't exist either. I choose to be agnostic (meaning I believe that we can't know for certain if God exists) for that very reason.
A French (Christian) court listening to a case on the legitimacy of another religion....what a farce! Glad I am not a French tax payer.
It's not a religion. And even if it was, Scientology is not in court for religion views, but for illegal acts (extortion, blackmail, whatever).
Sorry beanz, but Christian churches do not host life changing tech courses that cost you ALL your life savings...nice try, though.
True, when I used to go to church (I was brought up a Catholic) you never HAD to pay anything. They always passed a collection plate around, but you were free to give any amount (however small) or even none, and they never tried to tell us to break off from any non-Catholic friends or family.
GHBearman, I don't share your religious views, but I do respect your right to hold them, just as I respect Beanz/Winston's/etc right to be atheist. I do NOT respect people of any religion (whether real or false religion) who use religion to do evil unto others, but I know that people like that are the minority. And that's why I hate Scientology so much, it's designed just to hurt people for it's own gains.
Anyway, that's it for me in this thread, I didn't want it to go this way, sorry if it's upset anyone.
Let's get back to pestering ol' Joffa for him to release Saucer!
No it's what your girlfriend told me she keeps saying to you every time you go at it, when she calls me in tears saying you're hung like a sparrow and you only last 15 seconds.
Beanz, I'm not trying to say that Christianity, Islam, etc are free of crimes, I was saying:
1. Scientology is not a religion
The definition of religion can be applied to Scientology. It is recognized as a legal tax exempt religion in the United states....additionally....
In 2000, the Italian Supreme Court ruled that Scientology is a religion for legal purposes. In recent years, religious recognition has also been obtained in a number of other countries, including:
Sweden, Spain, Portugal, Slovenia, Croatia and Hungary, Kyrgyzstan and Taiwan.
2. Scientology is evil, existing only to control people and to take their money.
You mean like the IRS? :lol:
I want Scientology banned as it is criminal and immoral. Yes, parts of all religions might be like that (and the Catholic church has long protected paediophile priests, which is appallign beyond words, especially from such a supposedly moral organisition), and those involved should be arrested and either imprisoned for life or executed, but:
a) real religions, such as Catholicism, do good around the world, unlike Scientology,
Legally, doing something good does not redeem your indiscretions, you admit other religions are equally (more-so historically) guilty of crimes so you cannot ban one and then not expect the others to be brought to justice. Is it ok to slaughter thousands but then go out and give soup to the poor? I think not.
b) my post was only about Scientology. I never intended anyone to bring other (real) religions into it, as I've seen before how religion divides us up on these forums.
Well it's not fair to single one out when they are all in the same boat.
It's a fact that Christianity is called Christianity. It's a fact that the pope exists. It's a fact that priests are human, and therefore range from very good to extremely evil. There are facts in religion (though not, perhaps, in the preachings of religion).
Hmm not the facts I was talking about.
Can you prove that there is no god? Or that Jesus didn't exist? Of course not. I believe in evolution, I don't believe that Adam and Eve came into existance as they were, and that we are all descended from those two (first) humans. I don't believe in the forty days and night of rain that killed everything that wasn't on Noah's ark. But even if Christianity and all other religions are false, that doesn't mean that God himself doesn't exist. On the other hand, there is no proof at all (that I can see) that God does exist. Godmay or may not exist. Religions do exist. And Scientology is not a religion.
Can you prove there is not an Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy?....common sense and experience (should) teach you what is likely and unlikely to be true when definite proof is not available......your conclusion may or may not be correct.
I am saying all religion is controlling/dangerous/has caused more deaths globally than all the wars put together. I care little of the legalities of it all, just that if you apply it to one then ALL should be looked at and tried if indiscretions are found. I'm tired of hearing about child abuse and then the Catholic church covering it up or 'reassigning' the priest in question instead of doing 30yrs in jail.
Rampant child abuse is more evil imo than fleecing some idiot out of their savings.
Who is to say that homosexuality is wrong or right? Or if women should be allowed to speak to men that they aren't related to (in some cultures, this is not allowed). Or maybe we should bring back slavery?
1. The Bible 2. The Qur'an ....(if you believe in them :) )
Personally I believe we are programmed in our genes to know right from wrong. They even conducted experiments recently on 18 month old babies and concluded from them that the kids did show recognition of undesirable behavior.
Bring back slavery?? It never went away...have a look around the world.
And even if it was, Scientology is not in court for religion views, but for illegal acts (extortion, blackmail, whatever).
And as I said that is all well and good, but if you are singling out one that is not justice. Lets start with the Chatholics and child abuse and throw all the Bishops in jail for turning a blind eye to it/not reporting it to the authorities and thereby making them accomplices to the fact.
True, when I used to go to church (I was brought up a Catholic) you never HAD to pay anything. They always passed a collection plate around, but you were free to give any amount (however small) or even none, and they never tried to tell us to break off from any non-Catholic friends or family.
Umm scientologists don't (generally). I know a couple and they are not estranged from their family, they do not give ALL their money to the 'church'. They are regular Joes.....As Guy said...there are extreme variants of all religions.....you are choosing to focus only on those....there are 'normal' Scientologists..And lets remember people join of their own free will. No one is 'forced' to join, They have the choice.
Just as i laugh at scientologists believing this BS about a spaceship behind some meteor or that and the fact its created by a science fiction writer, i also laugh at christians about the ark/jesus/turned bread into wine and the other stories to do with christianity.
Both just sound ridiculous but a many millions of people who seemed 'lost' need something to cling onto.
A christian mocking scientology makes me laugh. Totally can understand people following religion closely 2000 years ago but in todays modern age, i'm stunned.
Erm you're mixing up Heaven's Gate with Scientology, psj. (edit: Jesus didn't turn bread into wine, that was water! how odd that people mock before they get their facts straight...)
Erm you're mixing up Heaven's Gate with Scientology, psj. (edit: Jesus didn't turn bread into wine, that was water! how odd that people mock before they get their facts straight...)
There is that word facts again...I'm pretty sure it is not a fact...merely a story....unless you have some factual evidence it actually occurred.
It's quite easy to mock something that has no factual evidence that it actually happened.
EDIT: Though it's a fact I can turn water into wine, just need some ingredients to make it happen.
Erm you're mixing up Heaven's Gate with Scientology, psj. (edit: Jesus didn't turn bread into wine, that was water! how odd that people mock before they get their facts straight...)
Ahhh okay sounds much more sensible people believing he turned water into wine. Much more believable.
It was rude of me to mock as it just sounds crazy bread into wine, whereas the real story of water=wine sounds much more sane ;)
John 2
Jesus Changes Water to Wine
1On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, 2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine."
4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come."
5His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."
6Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[a]
7Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.
8Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."
They did so, 9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."
11This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.
It is a fact that the Bible says Jesus turned water into wine (John 2), thus psj got his facts wrong.
Whether you want to claim this didn't happen or not, is irrelevant at this point :)
Actually he never mentioned the bible, just the FACT that Christians claim it as happening...which I assume is what he was disputing/laughing at. Re-read ;)
Comments
The LDS church is still a Christian Church, and whether the Prophet is their "god on earth" or not matters not one whit to the point I was making. The point I was making is that their leader gets to fly around in an expensive luxury business jet thanks in part to the tithes taken from followers (who by contrast have to slum it on SouthWest Airlines and have the TSA frisk them). The LDS church is extremely rich and powerful in Utah, and the consequences of someone born into a Mormon family trying to leave can be severe.
These kinds of things are not unique to the LDS church - most other sections of Christianity have been pretty coercive over the ages, some more recently than others (take a look at the Catholic church in Ireland). Organized religion is all about power, money and politics, even the inoffensive forms of Christianity are such, just to a lesser degree. Indeed, all organized religion is to some extent about power, money and politics. Find an example of one that isn't (well, except perhaps for the Flying Spaghetti Monster) and I'll eat my hat.
Which Variant is the legit one? they are all bizarre to me......You are aware how many variants of Christianity there are??? Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc etc etc...
Again, you cannot say 100% one persons belief is wrong and another is right without proving it! That is the main point no one seems to get. So please prove to me your religion and variant thereof is the legit one and I will accept it...
...I'll not hold my breath :)
I don't see the difference of stealing $1 or $100 dollars....it's still stealing.
Scientology asks for money and you think that is?
And before you say it....people are not 'forced' to join scientology to give them all their money...they do have the choice. I have been approached a few times over here and said 'no'.....I was not abducted/tortured...had all my money taken by them.
So yeah...benny asks for money, Scientology asks for money, the 'legit' christan church asks for money....'if you want to be in our gang here are the rules'.........you as a person either accept them or you don't.
Whats the difference...you have the choice, is Scientology at fault if stupid people say 'yes ok'?
I'm going to go with personal responsibility.
EDIT: To answer your question more directly. In my opinion yes it is stealing....Religion is a con, money gained from a con is stealing imo (or fraud I guess would be a better word).
Cyclists AND Scientologists...Now....who DOESN'T want to run them over? :lol: (see the new transportation thread).
......sigh it was a joke, no one was advocating running cyclists or Scientologists over......probably. (And it was a question not a statement :) )
I don't relate to your sense of humour, sorry.
Maybe the French court could outlaw it for you! :lol:
....don't throw me to the lions (groan).
He asked me something about fire and brimstone and lava coming up from the depths of hell? I was like "I'm not going down this road with you, because you're likely to end up offended". So he asked me something about hell and the centre of the earth anyway, to which I laughed in his face no the centre of the earth has a core then several layers going outwards until you get to where we are basically. Then he was on about thunder and god being angry. By this stage I was creased up and trying to keep a straight face, anyway to cut a long story short. It ended with me saying "No offense but I think the bible's bullshit, and I don't really believe in god".
He then said "Well do you believe in the devil then?".
I said no to that as well, so he had to pry he said "Well if you don't believe in god surely you believe in the devil".
So I said to him "No I don't the devil can't exist without god or there would be no balance between good and evil, I don't believe in either". So he said "Well why don't you believe in the devil?". I said "Because the devil is something invented hundreds maybe thousands of years ago to control and scare people into behaving themselves!!!!".
He stopped and looked around, then said "so you're saying the bible is bullshit then?".
I said "I think so".
He said "Is it?".
I said "that's for you to decide for yourself".
Thing is he has OCD and a comprehension deficit, so you sometimes have to tell him something 3 or 4 times before it sinks in, but he stopped right away there, like he was thinking, and I mean really thinking.
He hasn't mentioned god since, he normally does at least once a night to which I usually humour him, with a quick "MMMMMM HMMMMM :roll:".
what has this to do with scientology?
...and as for it having nothing to do with scientology...well from the looks of things 2/3rds of the thread so far hasn't really got anything to do with scientology.
It seems to have reverted to the usual bollocks within' 3 pages as usual, so I figured I'd tell a story.
Take it or leave it, doesn't bother me either way, that's my beliefs my opinion, there's no "One almighty god", and there's no devil to conteract him.
I won't be swayed on those, just like you won't be swayed on yours.
Simple as really.
If I was going to believe in a religion of any kind it would be something older and wiser than todays farcical fairy tales. But 200 years ago or more I'd have been put to death for saying such things.
Don't you just love freedom of speech....well what's left of it anyway :roll:
Beanz, I'm not trying to say that Christianity, Islam, etc are free of crimes, I was saying:
1. Scientology is not a religion
and
2. Scientology is evil, existing only to control people and to take their money.
Yes, real religions do that too, but not (nowadays, at least) nearly so totally as Scientology does, and genuine religions do do good deeds too.
I'm just surpised it's lasted this long ;)
is that what your wife said last night? :D
1. Scientology is not a religion
[/QUOTE]
Correct it was a business opportunity (There are L Ron Hubbard writings to this effect)
Find me a religion that does not employ people, make money, have holdings.
No it's what your girlfriend told me she keeps saying to you every time you go at it, when she calls me in tears saying you're hung like a sparrow and you only last 15 seconds.
In 2000, the Italian Supreme Court ruled that Scientology is a religion for legal purposes. In recent years, religious recognition has also been obtained in a number of other countries, including:
Sweden, Spain, Portugal, Slovenia, Croatia and Hungary, Kyrgyzstan and Taiwan.
You mean like the IRS? :lol:
Legally, doing something good does not redeem your indiscretions, you admit other religions are equally (more-so historically) guilty of crimes so you cannot ban one and then not expect the others to be brought to justice. Is it ok to slaughter thousands but then go out and give soup to the poor? I think not.
Well it's not fair to single one out when they are all in the same boat.
Hmm not the facts I was talking about.
Can you prove there is not an Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy?....common sense and experience (should) teach you what is likely and unlikely to be true when definite proof is not available......your conclusion may or may not be correct.
I am saying all religion is controlling/dangerous/has caused more deaths globally than all the wars put together. I care little of the legalities of it all, just that if you apply it to one then ALL should be looked at and tried if indiscretions are found. I'm tired of hearing about child abuse and then the Catholic church covering it up or 'reassigning' the priest in question instead of doing 30yrs in jail.
Rampant child abuse is more evil imo than fleecing some idiot out of their savings.
1. The Bible 2. The Qur'an ....(if you believe in them :) )
Personally I believe we are programmed in our genes to know right from wrong. They even conducted experiments recently on 18 month old babies and concluded from them that the kids did show recognition of undesirable behavior.
Bring back slavery?? It never went away...have a look around the world.
And as I said that is all well and good, but if you are singling out one that is not justice. Lets start with the Chatholics and child abuse and throw all the Bishops in jail for turning a blind eye to it/not reporting it to the authorities and thereby making them accomplices to the fact.
Umm scientologists don't (generally). I know a couple and they are not estranged from their family, they do not give ALL their money to the 'church'. They are regular Joes.....As Guy said...there are extreme variants of all religions.....you are choosing to focus only on those....there are 'normal' Scientologists..And lets remember people join of their own free will. No one is 'forced' to join, They have the choice.
Just as i laugh at scientologists believing this BS about a spaceship behind some meteor or that and the fact its created by a science fiction writer, i also laugh at christians about the ark/jesus/turned bread into wine and the other stories to do with christianity.
Both just sound ridiculous but a many millions of people who seemed 'lost' need something to cling onto.
A christian mocking scientology makes me laugh. Totally can understand people following religion closely 2000 years ago but in todays modern age, i'm stunned.
1) its made up
2) religion causes most of the wars
3) catholic priests are peadophiles
4) how can you believe in god when we have computers
5) no one cares about offending christians.
6) everyone has a 'freind' or has met someone who is religious, and has enjoyed taunting them about their faith.
7) its not for scientists to prove god doesn't excist, but the churh to prove god does excist.
8) science is the best thing that happened to this world.
9) people with faith for non tangable things have simple minds and aren't as clever as you.
10) threads about religion are always discouraged, but never locked, unless someone starts having a go at islam or the jewish faith.
There is that word facts again...I'm pretty sure it is not a fact...merely a story....unless you have some factual evidence it actually occurred.
It's quite easy to mock something that has no factual evidence that it actually happened.
EDIT: Though it's a fact I can turn water into wine, just need some ingredients to make it happen.
Those are reused because they always apply.
Whether you want to claim this didn't happen or not, is irrelevant at this point :)
Ahhh okay sounds much more sensible people believing he turned water into wine. Much more believable.
It was rude of me to mock as it just sounds crazy bread into wine, whereas the real story of water=wine sounds much more sane ;)
A 'fact' ? Oh come on
No, I've read that. It was definitely bread that got turned into wine in that book.
Please show me where it says 'bread' :)
Actually he never mentioned the bible, just the FACT that Christians claim it as happening...which I assume is what he was disputing/laughing at. Re-read ;)