Renegade - I still can't get past that fat boiler on level 3 (i think). She's impossible to beat!
Walk away from her using diagonal movement - she only moves in 4 directions (think that's true of all the enemies, in fact). Stop using diagonals and she charges at you. Catch her with a jump kick (this bit can be tricky :) but once you've put some distance between you, you'll have a better chance of getting the move off before impact.
I can't bring myself to vote one way or the other - there's great things about both games. Renegade has the shoulder throw on 128k, you can spin the jump kicks round in mid-air, you have the whole gang at once, you have the bosses, the ledges to push people off... lovely. But when I was about ten, all I wanted was a good home version of Double Dragon, the arcade game that basically defined my existence at the time :) Target Renegade's co-op mode and weapons hit the spot.
When I had a Spectrum, I thought Renegade was pretty good but the sequel was just an all round improvement. The bigger levels, the 2 player co op, being able to pickup weapons. I still rate the overall graphics and character design amongst the most memorable from the Speccy.
The trouble with TR is that it's just too easy -
i) the gameplay is a too slow (the amstrad version is a bit harder because it's faster paced)
ii) the shortage of onscreen enemies combined with the almighty flying kick mean that you're very seldom under any pressure.
iii) even if you do die, you just continue your next life where you left off
iv) there are no bosses so the last enemy you fight on each level is no harder than the first.
Compare that to Renegade, which is technically a simpler game -Puny levels, fewer moves, IMO graphically worse. But the gameplay does get progressively harder for each level, you are constantly in danger of being hit, if you lose a life you have to start the whole level again, and with the end of level bosses, you never know if you'll complete a level right until the end.
I like both a lot, but while I rate Target Renegade as the better technical achievement for the ZX Spectrum, and can still gleefully play through TR as a bit of stress relief, I get sweaty palms every time on the last level of Renegade.
I've finished target, and after all this time I still can't pass level 1 properly in Renegade...
but my favourite is by far Renegade, mostly because it's one of a kind, Target is a nice scroll fighter, just like double dragon or final fight... but Renegade has that unique flavour of what I call "the cage fighting".
it's very bruce lee: you are alone, in a place where you can't excape, and have no other option than to kick every and be the last survivour...
in target you always feel like you're in there because you want to, you go after the danger, in Renegade you are already there and there is nothing you can do but fight... and that rush is priceless!
I don't think they have managed to replicate that in modern game systems, except probably on Shemnue (was that the name for the game on Dreamcast?)
When I had a Spectrum, I thought Renegade was pretty good but the sequel was just an all round improvement. The bigger levels, the 2 player co op, being able to pickup weapons. I still rate the overall graphics and character design amongst the most memorable from the Speccy.
The trouble with TR is that it's just too easy -
i) the gameplay is a too slow (the amstrad version is a bit harder because it's faster paced)
ii) the shortage of onscreen enemies combined with the almighty flying kick mean that you're very seldom under any pressure.
iii) even if you do die, you just continue your next life where you left off
iv) there are no bosses so the last enemy you fight on each level is no harder than the first.
Compare that to Renegade, which is technically a simpler game -Puny levels, fewer moves, IMO graphically worse. But the gameplay does get progressively harder for each level, you are constantly in danger of being hit, if you lose a life you have to start the whole level again, and with the end of level bosses, you never know if you'll complete a level right until the end.
I like both a lot, but while I rate Target Renegade as the better technical achievement for the ZX Spectrum, and can still gleefully play through TR as a bit of stress relief, I get sweaty palms every time on the last level of Renegade.
Sod it, I still can't decide :D
I think you make some excellent points. A lot of the affection for TR comes from nostalgia (I remember thinking it was absolutely amazing the first time I played it) but it really hasn't aged as well as the original game. The first Renegade is still a superb little fighting game and a reasonable challenge. The fact that there's nothing else quite like it helps as well.
I agree with just about all these points but I would add that Mike Lamb and co had to come up with all of Target Renegade themselves and I disagree with the notion that it's aged more than the original (though I would agree that it should have featured bosses. Saying that, the whole idea of such a game was brand new and Double Dragon was the first of its kind).
Both games are quite different and one doesn't make the other obsolete. I'd easily include both in my top five of fave Speccy games ever and both deserve the universal praise they seem to get.
I get the impression I should have included a "Can't choose between them" option on the poll. For me it wasn't all that easy, and I weighed up all the factors most people have mentioned in this thread. I ended up going for the original, but who knows, six months ago or six months from now I could vote for Target. Close call really.
It just occured to me. The number of enemies on screen for renegade was quite a feat really. I remember when I got competent with the game, I got a rush out of trashing all the enemies on the first level in the quickest time possible. I'm sure I narrowed it down to under a minute. No such fun on ol' Target!
It just occured to me. The number of enemies on screen for renegade was quite a feat really. I remember when I got competent with the game, I got a rush out of trashing all the enemies on the first level in the quickest time possible. I'm sure I narrowed it down to under a minute. No such fun on ol' Target!
Y'know, the more I think about it, the more logical I think it would have been for a second sequel to include both game types (one stage the traditional brawl, the next the more adventurous DD approach) and perhaps a third type of stage featuring platform game style fights or something.
Either way, Mr Lamb, you should have done the duty for Renegade III! Oh well...
Back in the day I never found a Renegade arcade machine, so my first experience of the game was the Spectrum version. More recently I played the arcade version on MAME, and was frankly quite disappointed. The control system, which other people here have mentioned, was extremely hard to get used to. I can only assume it was more intuitive on the actually arcade machine than when trying to adapt it to a PC keyboard.
As for what each game looks like,
The lines that make up the floor on the arcade version are too steep, and because the characters seem to walk on their toes when walking down the screen, it looks like they're about to slide off the edge of the world!
Y'know, the more I think about it, the more logical I think it would have been for a second sequel to include both game types (one stage the traditional brawl, the next the more adventurous DD approach) and perhaps a third type of stage featuring platform game style fights or something.
Either way, Mr Lamb, you should have done the duty for Renegade III! Oh well...
Confused for a moment there until I realised you meant Mike Lamb, the programmer, and not MattLamb the guy who started the poll :)
A "proper" third entry in the series, combining elements of Renegade and Target Renegade, is one of those things I have wishlisted about before on WoS, so I won't repeat it here :) Besides, they both pushed the host machine to the limit - not sure how you'd cram any more in - that is unless you... no. No, I won't start!
I not only second that, but I also think it's better looking!
I can sort of agree with that, the arcade game has that bright, clunky lo-res c64 look to it, while the good old speccy is more grainy and dingey - which suits the game better.
What really kills the arcade version (and some of the home computer ports) for me is that crazy way of having 1 button for attacking enemies to your left, and another button for those on the right. Whoever came up for the one button system on the spectrum deserves a cigar.
I just noticed what a convoluted route this series has taken:
~1986 Technos makes Nekketsu Kōha Kunio-kun (a very Japanese 'arena fighter')
1986 Taito regionalize the game - changing all the sprites and story to a more American setting for the western market
1987 Imagine convert Renegade for all the British 8 bit computers
1988 Imagine make their own sequel - Target Renegade
1989 Nothing happened in this year ;)
1990 Taito make Target Renegade for the NES, quite different from the Imagine versions, except maybe for the c64 version in that they were both rubbish.
Meanwhile the original creators of the game took the original character and put him in a series of Japanese dodgeball and football games.
There was an 8 bit version of what appears to be the Goemon/Mystical Ninja game that appeared on the SNES, but starring Kunio. I only found out about this cos' there's a few classic Kunio carts for the GBA which just emulate the NES games very poorly (on an emulator anyway, maybe an emulator emulating a game that's emulating another game is why it runs like a lethargic dog on valium).
Along with River City Ranson (kind of a TR type game, but more open ended), the GBA version is good. I just wish they'd translated the Kunio game instead of changing the story and sprites again :roll:
Those dodgeball, football, and multi-event Kunio games got converted to the rather unimpressive Crash games. Crash was a red headed gimp who looked ridiculous.
Plus Kunio has had a couple of games on the SNES both the fighty type ones were actually quite good, but I don't think they'd have fit into a Speccy.
The lines that make up the floor on the arcade version are too steep, and because the characters seem to walk on their toes when walking down the screen, it looks like they're about to slide off the edge of the world!
Yes. deffo too steep! I saw it vaguely in the arcade and thought it looked a mess! Speccy version beats the arcade ( and I don't say that lightly.)
I'd go for Renegade. The action runs to a faster pace due to the smaller playing area and shorter time limit. No lame weapons of sort - you only have your hands and feet to defend yourself. Tougher bosses, especially on the third level. And in Target Renegade you cannot throw people off cliffs.
Besides, Renegade is a properly done coin-op conversion of a spiffing arcade game, which acts as a little added value in my book.
That said, Target Renegade is a great game in itself, only not as great as Renegade in my opinion.
Comments
Walk away from her using diagonal movement - she only moves in 4 directions (think that's true of all the enemies, in fact). Stop using diagonals and she charges at you. Catch her with a jump kick (this bit can be tricky :) but once you've put some distance between you, you'll have a better chance of getting the move off before impact.
I can't bring myself to vote one way or the other - there's great things about both games. Renegade has the shoulder throw on 128k, you can spin the jump kicks round in mid-air, you have the whole gang at once, you have the bosses, the ledges to push people off... lovely. But when I was about ten, all I wanted was a good home version of Double Dragon, the arcade game that basically defined my existence at the time :) Target Renegade's co-op mode and weapons hit the spot.
The trouble with TR is that it's just too easy -
i) the gameplay is a too slow (the amstrad version is a bit harder because it's faster paced)
ii) the shortage of onscreen enemies combined with the almighty flying kick mean that you're very seldom under any pressure.
iii) even if you do die, you just continue your next life where you left off
iv) there are no bosses so the last enemy you fight on each level is no harder than the first.
Compare that to Renegade, which is technically a simpler game -Puny levels, fewer moves, IMO graphically worse. But the gameplay does get progressively harder for each level, you are constantly in danger of being hit, if you lose a life you have to start the whole level again, and with the end of level bosses, you never know if you'll complete a level right until the end.
I like both a lot, but while I rate Target Renegade as the better technical achievement for the ZX Spectrum, and can still gleefully play through TR as a bit of stress relief, I get sweaty palms every time on the last level of Renegade.
Sod it, I still can't decide :D
but my favourite is by far Renegade, mostly because it's one of a kind, Target is a nice scroll fighter, just like double dragon or final fight... but Renegade has that unique flavour of what I call "the cage fighting".
it's very bruce lee: you are alone, in a place where you can't excape, and have no other option than to kick every and be the last survivour...
in target you always feel like you're in there because you want to, you go after the danger, in Renegade you are already there and there is nothing you can do but fight... and that rush is priceless!
I don't think they have managed to replicate that in modern game systems, except probably on Shemnue (was that the name for the game on Dreamcast?)
I think you make some excellent points. A lot of the affection for TR comes from nostalgia (I remember thinking it was absolutely amazing the first time I played it) but it really hasn't aged as well as the original game. The first Renegade is still a superb little fighting game and a reasonable challenge. The fact that there's nothing else quite like it helps as well.
Seconded (again)
Both games are quite different and one doesn't make the other obsolete. I'd easily include both in my top five of fave Speccy games ever and both deserve the universal praise they seem to get.
Y'know, the more I think about it, the more logical I think it would have been for a second sequel to include both game types (one stage the traditional brawl, the next the more adventurous DD approach) and perhaps a third type of stage featuring platform game style fights or something.
Either way, Mr Lamb, you should have done the duty for Renegade III! Oh well...
You know what ... come to think of it I believe I never tried the arcade version ... so I'll have to, in my own way, agree with you.
I not only second that, but I also think it's better looking!
As for what each game looks like,
The lines that make up the floor on the arcade version are too steep, and because the characters seem to walk on their toes when walking down the screen, it looks like they're about to slide off the edge of the world!
Confused for a moment there until I realised you meant Mike Lamb, the programmer, and not MattLamb the guy who started the poll :)
A "proper" third entry in the series, combining elements of Renegade and Target Renegade, is one of those things I have wishlisted about before on WoS, so I won't repeat it here :) Besides, they both pushed the host machine to the limit - not sure how you'd cram any more in - that is unless you... no. No, I won't start!
I can sort of agree with that, the arcade game has that bright, clunky lo-res c64 look to it, while the good old speccy is more grainy and dingey - which suits the game better.
What really kills the arcade version (and some of the home computer ports) for me is that crazy way of having 1 button for attacking enemies to your left, and another button for those on the right. Whoever came up for the one button system on the spectrum deserves a cigar.
I just noticed what a convoluted route this series has taken:
~1986 Technos makes Nekketsu Kōha Kunio-kun (a very Japanese 'arena fighter')
1986 Taito regionalize the game - changing all the sprites and story to a more American setting for the western market
1987 Imagine convert Renegade for all the British 8 bit computers
1988 Imagine make their own sequel - Target Renegade
1989 Nothing happened in this year ;)
1990 Taito make Target Renegade for the NES, quite different from the Imagine versions, except maybe for the c64 version in that they were both rubbish.
Meanwhile the original creators of the game took the original character and put him in a series of Japanese dodgeball and football games.
Along with River City Ranson (kind of a TR type game, but more open ended), the GBA version is good. I just wish they'd translated the Kunio game instead of changing the story and sprites again :roll:
Those dodgeball, football, and multi-event Kunio games got converted to the rather unimpressive Crash games. Crash was a red headed gimp who looked ridiculous.
Plus Kunio has had a couple of games on the SNES both the fighty type ones were actually quite good, but I don't think they'd have fit into a Speccy.
The bigger graphics, music, skirts, weapons and co-op were nice additions but Rene felt tighter and, as Matt says, edgier.
Also, the weapons were useless and the levels were a little too long in T:R. A very good game but not a true great.
Rene on the other hand is top ten material for me.
Rene3 = horrible.
...and that's putting it politely ;)
**gets coat**
Haha, yeah, sorry about that!
Yes. deffo too steep! I saw it vaguely in the arcade and thought it looked a mess! Speccy version beats the arcade ( and I don't say that lightly.)
Besides, Renegade is a properly done coin-op conversion of a spiffing arcade game, which acts as a little added value in my book.
That said, Target Renegade is a great game in itself, only not as great as Renegade in my opinion.