All we need now is for ghbearman to say the C64 is better than the Speccy and it'll be even more chaotic ;)
I'm dreading his next thread in which he apologises for something as it'll turn into another World War III thread ;)
It's shit like this which leads to organisations banning Christmas, or renaming it "Winterval"... why can't people just wind their necks in and let things go once in a while?
So the Bishop said people no longer saw floods as an "act of God". Where does it say that the Bishop actually said that he believed that this flood was an act of god?
"If we live in a profligate way then there are going to be consequences." seems to sum up his argument. If you want to read more into that then you're certainly starting with the right paper, I'll give you that.
Sure, I have major problems with it, such as the current priest/pedophile thing,
Just to double check though, if a priest who has been in the church for 25 years was found guilty of abusing altar boys 20 year ago, you would want him thrown out totally wouldnt you ?
And if you had a child who turned out to be gay what would you do then ?
I'm not trying to wind you up i'm genuinely interested in what you would choose.
Just to double check though, if a priest who has been in the church for 25 years was found guilty of abusing altar boys 20 year ago, you would want him thrown out totally wouldnt you ?
Speaking as an atheist, there's two approaches spring to mind:
1) The "light the blue touch-paper and retire" god you propose doesn't sound much like the sort of god our religions speak of - the one who you can have a personal relationship with, who will let you live forever if you love him etc. I expect an atheist might allow this sort of god could indeed exist, but would still therefore reject religion; and
2) Where's the evidence for a god that leaves no evidence? That's not a god, that's a conspiracy theory :D You might as well say the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and it's just as valid a theory!
I don't understand what relevence point one has to what I said, sorry? Point two, yes, you're right that since (I say, at least) that there is no evidence that God exists then there can be (to me) no evidence that God does exist and has deliberatly left no evidence of his existence. True, but lack of evidence of something does not necessarily equal the evidence of the lack of something. I see no reason to believe in the flying spaghetti monster, or ESP, or aliens on Jupiter, but I can't prove that they don't exist. They may as well not exist for all of the effect they have on us (as far as I can see), but I cannot disprove their existence, either.
I mean, I accept that the universe was created fifteen billion years ago in an explosion between two clouds, one of Hydrogen and one of Oxygen (could be wrong about Oxygen, it's ages since I read it). The clouds had no dimensions (measurements) at all, and before the explosion there was no time and no space, since time and space are attributes of the universe that came about AFTER the explosion. I accept that there is a speed limit in the universe, which nothing can go faster than. I accept that all life on Earth evolved due to radiation and a billion different combinations of trial and error mutations resulting in the survival of the animals most fitted for their environment and the obsticles that they had to overcome to survive. I believe that the universe is infinite and also expanding (seemingly a paradox, but explainable by the word "universe" having two definitions). I accept that everything is made up of sub atomic particles, that the universe runs strictly along impartial, impersonal laws which cannot be broken, and can only be understood by us in mathematical terms. I believe that the Sun, tigers, doves, terrapins, green grass, snowflakes, women's faces and bodies, coastlines, etc, are all designed by the blind, unconscious processes of nature, and are not consciously desinged by a supremely talented artist, however much these things might strike my soul as being beautiful.
In fact, I believe that my "soul" is actually just a serious of immensly complicated (shut up, Mile!) electro-chemical impulses in my brain. I believe that my brain, like my other organs, is made up mostly of water, with a bit of iron, carbon, salt, etc, mixed in. I believe that I have nearly forty thousand miles of veins in my body (seriously - I've heard that), twenty odd feet of small intestines, a heart which pumps every moment that I am alive, that I have poisonous acides in my stomach that I need to break down my food, that my blood circulates through every point in my body, carrying oxygen to my muslces and organs, and carrying waste products back again, that my body can manufacture warlike cells to fight infections and bacteria, that I have an appendix which hasn't been used by the human body for hundreds of thousands of years (aparently it was used to break down grass when we used to graze - nowadays if you eat only grass, no matter how much grass, you'll starve to death, as the human body can no longer process grass into nutriants). I believe that I am descended from monkeys, and before that from fish, and before that from primeval slime.
I belive that the air around us is full of tiny bacteria, too small to see, that can cause all sorts of diseases. I believe that people can have mental illnesses that can cause them to hear voices or believe things that make no sense to us. I believe that a heart or a kidney can be transfered from one person to another. And so on and so on.
Yet all of these things would sound impossible, or worse, ridiculous, to anyone who grew up before these were known facts. And who would believe that a ship made of metal would float? Or that an aeroplane could fly? Or that a device like a television or telephone could work?
'course, it's an arrogant scientist who believes there is nothing left to be discovered... but the evidence so far, which is all a sensible atheist should go on, does not point to a benevolent god.
Anyone read Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces? That makes for interesting religion-related reading... (just to continue poking the hornets nest, but with a different stick this time :))
I agree - I don't see how any moral God could allow wars, child abuse, illness, stavation, etc. But I'm not arguing that God is moral. Just that, in my belief:
1) If God does exist AND if he is good, then he wouldn't be offended by anything we did to or against him,
and:
2) I don't see any proof that God does not exist. And no proof that he does either. On the other hand, whilst I see no proof that lepricorns exist, I see lots of proof that they can't, as they go against so many physical laws (rainbows do NOT have an end, and being able to conjoure ANYTHING up for a wish is ridiculous). But if you consider the question of the existence of God, as in the being who created the universe and all of it's laws, then you have to consider that since God created the laws, then he is outside of them, and could break/bend/modify them at will. He could create anything he liked (if he could create anything he liked, as we usually assume when talking about God), and he could also leave no evidence of his existence, or remove it at will.
My cousin wanted to become a nun once, but she only lasted two days. She was asked to get down on her knees and scrub the stone floor of a corridor with a small hand brush. She threw the bucket of soapy water over the mother superior and told her to "eff off!".
But my familly is like that. I also have an uncle called Dustin.
I must admit I went to sunday school as a kid, wasnt too bad, it wasnt super strict but the basic principles was to teach you right from wrong which were I think very good to kids at a young age.
When I got older i made my own decisions and decided not to believe in God but my parents were fine with that, they let me choose my 'own path'. I think its quite sad when you see 'some' kids who seem to be totally brain washed by their parents though, the type who look 'super square' when theyre aged 16 and totally out of place compared to everyone else in their class, then again if thats all they've been taught to learn/follow then its not surprising.
But again each to their own, a guy i'm working for is a jehovas and obviously doesnt celebrate Christmas, he doesnt even go on Xmas do's which seems a bit OTT as its not like everyones celebrating something to do with Jesus, just an excuse for a jolly with work colleagues but he is thankfully mellowing a bit.
I would hate to hear ghbearman's view on homosexuals as well. I reckon I would get the 'its a lifestyle' response ! People are just born gay, you cant change them. My uncles gay and is a great bloke, I know he had tons of abuse in the past from homophobics.
For some people religion is great and thats good for them. But again I hate hearing it crammed down my throat from some OTT religious folk.
Calm down dear, its only a conversation. You are getting very confused with Retro Reunited.
I think your throat is safe from any violation here.
"If we live in a profligate way then there are going to be consequences." seems to sum up his argument. If you want to read more into that then you're certainly starting with the right paper, I'll give you that.
Well, those people quoted didn't try to sue the paper for slander! And I don't read the Mail. Or Express, or any paper for that matter. It was just that the BBC NEWS site's search engine is rubbish and I couldn't find the report I had originally read.
I think this thread is really funny - and those people whom are shocked by that statement should take a deep breath and forgive me.
But again each to their own, a guy i'm working for is a jehovas and obviously doesnt celebrate Christmas, he doesnt even go on Xmas do's which seems a bit OTT as its not like everyones celebrating something to do with Jesus, just an excuse for a jolly with work colleagues but he is thankfully mellowing a bit.
amusing anecdote: I live next door to an ex-Jehovah's Witness and he says that they do give each other presents...but don't wrap them. :lol: Have a merry non-Christmas to them!
amusing anecdote: I live next door to an ex-Jehovah's Witness and he says that they do give each other presents...but don't wrap them. :lol: Have a merry non-Christmas to them!
That sounds like a dream ! I do like Xmas but wrapping presents i just hate, i'm terrible at wrapping, waste of time creating some wrapping masterpiece when seconds later its ripped paper all over the place.
If there werent young children or toddlers in pain from diseases, if newborn babies didnt have problems, if a 4 year old girl didnt have cancer I might start to believe there really is a God.
At the risk of being shouted at, what has this to do with the existance of God?
If my Spectrum breaks down, do I doubt Sir Clive exists?
But if there was a god i dont believe any of these things would happen, seeing innocent children in pain etc. I said this once to a jehovas and their response was 'its a test from god', slammed the door in their face after that.
I'm afraid there are those who do not think...and that sect actively prevents their members from being informed, so you shouldn't take their answers seriously anyway. But think about this: if your scenario existed, how would people be compassionate, there would be less reason to do so.
If priests werent kiddie fiddlers, if there werent wars down to religion, if the church didnt cover up paedophiles they knew about etc then again I might be converted.
me personally, I'd rather you converted to Christ than to any church. and sure, the churches failings are a major problem that unfortunately keeps people away :(
2000 years ago people thought the world was flat,
sorry, this is a myth. a recent myth, too.
I would hate to hear ghbearman's view on homosexuals as well.
I disagree with their lifestyle, and yes it is a lifestyle and no you aren't necessarily born gay - and yes there are folk who have rejected being gay and are now straight! I know gay people who are great too, that has nothing to do with whether their behaviour is morally right. my main argument against it is this: if one accepts evolution, which is ultimately about reproduction, you ought also reject homosexuality because they cannot naturally reproduce.
Also, I'm not trying to cram anything down your throat. you're quite welcome to respond :)
That sounds like a dream ! I do like Xmas but wrapping presents i just hate, i'm terrible at wrapping, waste of time creating some wrapping masterpiece when seconds later its ripped paper all over the place.
hopefully you don't like playing chess...they ban chess (because it's about thinking & strategy...obviously doing this might lead you to realise what they're trying to achieve in your life! can't have that!!! :lol:)
I disagree with their lifestyle, and yes it is a lifestyle and no you aren't necessarily born gay - and yes there are folk who have rejected being gay and are now straight! I know gay people who are great too, that has nothing to do with whether their behaviour is morally right. my main argument against it is this: if one accepts evolution, which is ultimately about reproduction, you ought also reject homosexuality because they cannot naturally reproduce.
Also, I'm not trying to cram anything down your throat. you're quite welcome to respond :)
I do find the paragraph above totally amusing but fair play to you for posting that. I believe people are just born gay, nothing you can do about it.
And i admit i totally dont agree with a TON of stuff you've been writing (and i'm sure vica versa) but despite a fair few heated conversations fair play to you for responding.
Aren't nuns married to god? She wasn't setting a very good example, or was she? If she could get that angry for me colouring Jesus in wrong imagine what her hubby would've done to me if he'd seen that colouring book?
Fire? Brimstone? fill my house full of frogs? or maybe gnats?
He'd more than likely send wild and angry bears to rip you to shreds, that's the sort of thing this christian god does to kids. In fact, I believe he did it to some kids that took the piss out of some bloke's baldness. Ah yes, it's on 2 Kings 2:23-25. Elisha basically took offense at the kids making fun of his baldness, so he cursed them in the name of the lord; subsequently two bears appears that ripped 42 kids to bits.
Make of that what you will. Obviously, the Bible is:
I believe the bible to be inerrant, not presuppositionally, mind, but because God is perfect - hence inspiring righteous men to write is more likely to produce something inerrant than something contradictory.
So god, in his perfection, likes his kids in small pieces. Nice.
The church in the bible is said to be the Bride of Christ, so it shouldn't just be the nuns... ;)
So if I join this church, I have to marry a bloke? Sorry, but that's just a step too far. You're all weirdos and deviants. In fact, latest developments in Ireland pretty much confirm it - religion is generally the last refuge of the paedophile. And now you're saying you're all gay too? Damn, but you've got problems.
He'd more than likely send wild and angry bears to rip you to shreds, that's the sort of thing this christian god does to kids. In fact, I believe he did it to some kids that took the piss out of some bloke's baldness.
guffaw. I don't suppose you have considered that these 'kids' were more likely a gang, and that calling someone bald would be a social insult (since the Baalish priests were bald, and the prophet they were calling names was committed to YHWH, not Baal.)
So if I join this church, I have to marry a bloke? Sorry, but that's just a step too far. You're all weirdos and deviants. In fact, latest developments in Ireland pretty much confirm it - religion is generally the last refuge of the paedophile. And now you're saying you're all gay too? Damn, but you've got problems.
D.
metaphor, sir. metaphor. as in, commitment to Christ alone, not trying to be a Scientologist too. :)
I disagree with their lifestyle, and yes it is a lifestyle and no you aren't necessarily born gay - and yes there are folk who have rejected being gay and are now straight!
Hahaha! How amusing!
They may have rejected their gayness, but they're not straight, they're just repressing themselves. They can say I'm not gay, I'm straight but deep down they're lieing to themselves and everyone else. Homosexuality is genetic.
Also a lot of ancient civilisations were all buggering each other before somebody came along and told them it was wrong :lol:
I disagree with their lifestyle, and yes it is a lifestyle and no you aren't necessarily born gay - and yes there are folk who have rejected being gay and are now straight! I know gay people who are great too, that has nothing to do with whether their behaviour is morally right. my main argument against it is this: if one accepts evolution, which is ultimately about reproduction, you ought also reject homosexuality because they cannot naturally reproduce.
Also, I'm not trying to cram anything down your throat. you're quite welcome to respond :)
I would contend that the people who were "born gay but are now straight" are living in a terrible world of self-denial and self-disgust. Sexual preferences aren't a choice, I don't remember ever choosing to be straight!
As for homosexuality surviving evolution - it does seem like nothing is actively selecting against it, so if it is (as I believe) a genetic effect, it's a complicated one. Hence scientists failing to find the Gay Gene. Maybe it even has benefits for the species - stops us overpopulating, perhaps.
guffaw. I don't suppose you have considered that these 'kids' were more likely a gang, and that calling someone bald would be a social insult (since the Baalish priests were bald, and the prophet they were calling names was committed to YHWH, not Baal.)
Even so, is that an appropriate response to name-calling? Thought not :)
metaphor, sir. metaphor. as in, commitment to Christ alone, not trying to be a Scientologist too. :)
My main argument against it is this: if one accepts evolution, which is ultimately about reproduction, you ought also reject homosexuality because they cannot naturally reproduce.
Please don't try this route as you really won't get very far. Evolution is ultimately about survival, not perfection. There is no idealism to be found. Homosexual behaviour has been observed in several species. Even necrophilia has been filmed in the case of Mallard Ducks, and that certainly doesn't help reproduction. Obviously if that's all that went on, a species would get nowhere. But if it occurs without hampering the profligation of other members of the species then evolution won't do anything to stop it.
If you consider it immoral or sinful by your own moral standards, don't try to pass it off as someone else's prejudice.
joefish, how does a species survive apart from reproduction? yes, I'm aware of a handful of species that practice homosexuality, but that's hardly a positive argument for its validity now, is it?
Comments
It's shit like this which leads to organisations banning Christmas, or renaming it "Winterval"... why can't people just wind their necks in and let things go once in a while?
"If we live in a profligate way then there are going to be consequences." seems to sum up his argument. If you want to read more into that then you're certainly starting with the right paper, I'll give you that.
- IONIAN-GAMES.com -
Just to double check though, if a priest who has been in the church for 25 years was found guilty of abusing altar boys 20 year ago, you would want him thrown out totally wouldnt you ?
And if you had a child who turned out to be gay what would you do then ?
I'm not trying to wind you up i'm genuinely interested in what you would choose.
Yes why not!
here's one I didn't make earlier.
I wonder if the sculptor of this statue was beaten in front of his fellow sculptors for being a heathen also?
yes I would want him thrown out.
I don't understand what relevence point one has to what I said, sorry? Point two, yes, you're right that since (I say, at least) that there is no evidence that God exists then there can be (to me) no evidence that God does exist and has deliberatly left no evidence of his existence. True, but lack of evidence of something does not necessarily equal the evidence of the lack of something. I see no reason to believe in the flying spaghetti monster, or ESP, or aliens on Jupiter, but I can't prove that they don't exist. They may as well not exist for all of the effect they have on us (as far as I can see), but I cannot disprove their existence, either.
I mean, I accept that the universe was created fifteen billion years ago in an explosion between two clouds, one of Hydrogen and one of Oxygen (could be wrong about Oxygen, it's ages since I read it). The clouds had no dimensions (measurements) at all, and before the explosion there was no time and no space, since time and space are attributes of the universe that came about AFTER the explosion. I accept that there is a speed limit in the universe, which nothing can go faster than. I accept that all life on Earth evolved due to radiation and a billion different combinations of trial and error mutations resulting in the survival of the animals most fitted for their environment and the obsticles that they had to overcome to survive. I believe that the universe is infinite and also expanding (seemingly a paradox, but explainable by the word "universe" having two definitions). I accept that everything is made up of sub atomic particles, that the universe runs strictly along impartial, impersonal laws which cannot be broken, and can only be understood by us in mathematical terms. I believe that the Sun, tigers, doves, terrapins, green grass, snowflakes, women's faces and bodies, coastlines, etc, are all designed by the blind, unconscious processes of nature, and are not consciously desinged by a supremely talented artist, however much these things might strike my soul as being beautiful.
In fact, I believe that my "soul" is actually just a serious of immensly complicated (shut up, Mile!) electro-chemical impulses in my brain. I believe that my brain, like my other organs, is made up mostly of water, with a bit of iron, carbon, salt, etc, mixed in. I believe that I have nearly forty thousand miles of veins in my body (seriously - I've heard that), twenty odd feet of small intestines, a heart which pumps every moment that I am alive, that I have poisonous acides in my stomach that I need to break down my food, that my blood circulates through every point in my body, carrying oxygen to my muslces and organs, and carrying waste products back again, that my body can manufacture warlike cells to fight infections and bacteria, that I have an appendix which hasn't been used by the human body for hundreds of thousands of years (aparently it was used to break down grass when we used to graze - nowadays if you eat only grass, no matter how much grass, you'll starve to death, as the human body can no longer process grass into nutriants). I believe that I am descended from monkeys, and before that from fish, and before that from primeval slime.
I belive that the air around us is full of tiny bacteria, too small to see, that can cause all sorts of diseases. I believe that people can have mental illnesses that can cause them to hear voices or believe things that make no sense to us. I believe that a heart or a kidney can be transfered from one person to another. And so on and so on.
Yet all of these things would sound impossible, or worse, ridiculous, to anyone who grew up before these were known facts. And who would believe that a ship made of metal would float? Or that an aeroplane could fly? Or that a device like a television or telephone could work?
I agree - I don't see how any moral God could allow wars, child abuse, illness, stavation, etc. But I'm not arguing that God is moral. Just that, in my belief:
1) If God does exist AND if he is good, then he wouldn't be offended by anything we did to or against him,
and:
2) I don't see any proof that God does not exist. And no proof that he does either. On the other hand, whilst I see no proof that lepricorns exist, I see lots of proof that they can't, as they go against so many physical laws (rainbows do NOT have an end, and being able to conjoure ANYTHING up for a wish is ridiculous). But if you consider the question of the existence of God, as in the being who created the universe and all of it's laws, then you have to consider that since God created the laws, then he is outside of them, and could break/bend/modify them at will. He could create anything he liked (if he could create anything he liked, as we usually assume when talking about God), and he could also leave no evidence of his existence, or remove it at will.
But my familly is like that. I also have an uncle called Dustin.
Haha! Great find! :D Stone the sculptor! :D
not quite sure how colouring defines one as a heathen :lol:
Neither am I but for the pasting I got as a kid for colouring Jesus green apparently it does :D
When I got older i made my own decisions and decided not to believe in God but my parents were fine with that, they let me choose my 'own path'. I think its quite sad when you see 'some' kids who seem to be totally brain washed by their parents though, the type who look 'super square' when theyre aged 16 and totally out of place compared to everyone else in their class, then again if thats all they've been taught to learn/follow then its not surprising.
But again each to their own, a guy i'm working for is a jehovas and obviously doesnt celebrate Christmas, he doesnt even go on Xmas do's which seems a bit OTT as its not like everyones celebrating something to do with Jesus, just an excuse for a jolly with work colleagues but he is thankfully mellowing a bit.
Calm down dear, its only a conversation. You are getting very confused with Retro Reunited.
I think your throat is safe from any violation here.
Well, those people quoted didn't try to sue the paper for slander! And I don't read the Mail. Or Express, or any paper for that matter. It was just that the BBC NEWS site's search engine is rubbish and I couldn't find the report I had originally read.
I think this thread is really funny - and those people whom are shocked by that statement should take a deep breath and forgive me.
amusing anecdote: I live next door to an ex-Jehovah's Witness and he says that they do give each other presents...but don't wrap them. :lol: Have a merry non-Christmas to them!
Sorry Michael Winner ! ;) Retro Reunited, eh ??!
That sounds like a dream ! I do like Xmas but wrapping presents i just hate, i'm terrible at wrapping, waste of time creating some wrapping masterpiece when seconds later its ripped paper all over the place.
At the risk of being shouted at, what has this to do with the existance of God?
If my Spectrum breaks down, do I doubt Sir Clive exists?
I'm afraid there are those who do not think...and that sect actively prevents their members from being informed, so you shouldn't take their answers seriously anyway. But think about this: if your scenario existed, how would people be compassionate, there would be less reason to do so.
me personally, I'd rather you converted to Christ than to any church. and sure, the churches failings are a major problem that unfortunately keeps people away :(
sorry, this is a myth. a recent myth, too.
I disagree with their lifestyle, and yes it is a lifestyle and no you aren't necessarily born gay - and yes there are folk who have rejected being gay and are now straight! I know gay people who are great too, that has nothing to do with whether their behaviour is morally right. my main argument against it is this: if one accepts evolution, which is ultimately about reproduction, you ought also reject homosexuality because they cannot naturally reproduce.
Also, I'm not trying to cram anything down your throat. you're quite welcome to respond :)
http://http://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/showpost.php?p=404712&postcount=62
hopefully you don't like playing chess...they ban chess (because it's about thinking & strategy...obviously doing this might lead you to realise what they're trying to achieve in your life! can't have that!!! :lol:)
I do find the paragraph above totally amusing but fair play to you for posting that. I believe people are just born gay, nothing you can do about it.
And i admit i totally dont agree with a TON of stuff you've been writing (and i'm sure vica versa) but despite a fair few heated conversations fair play to you for responding.
He'd more than likely send wild and angry bears to rip you to shreds, that's the sort of thing this christian god does to kids. In fact, I believe he did it to some kids that took the piss out of some bloke's baldness. Ah yes, it's on 2 Kings 2:23-25. Elisha basically took offense at the kids making fun of his baldness, so he cursed them in the name of the lord; subsequently two bears appears that ripped 42 kids to bits.
Make of that what you will. Obviously, the Bible is:
So god, in his perfection, likes his kids in small pieces. Nice.
So if I join this church, I have to marry a bloke? Sorry, but that's just a step too far. You're all weirdos and deviants. In fact, latest developments in Ireland pretty much confirm it - religion is generally the last refuge of the paedophile. And now you're saying you're all gay too? Damn, but you've got problems.
D.
guffaw. I don't suppose you have considered that these 'kids' were more likely a gang, and that calling someone bald would be a social insult (since the Baalish priests were bald, and the prophet they were calling names was committed to YHWH, not Baal.)
metaphor, sir. metaphor. as in, commitment to Christ alone, not trying to be a Scientologist too. :)
Hahaha! How amusing!
They may have rejected their gayness, but they're not straight, they're just repressing themselves. They can say I'm not gay, I'm straight but deep down they're lieing to themselves and everyone else. Homosexuality is genetic.
Also a lot of ancient civilisations were all buggering each other before somebody came along and told them it was wrong :lol:
I would contend that the people who were "born gay but are now straight" are living in a terrible world of self-denial and self-disgust. Sexual preferences aren't a choice, I don't remember ever choosing to be straight!
As for homosexuality surviving evolution - it does seem like nothing is actively selecting against it, so if it is (as I believe) a genetic effect, it's a complicated one. Hence scientists failing to find the Gay Gene. Maybe it even has benefits for the species - stops us overpopulating, perhaps.
Even so, is that an appropriate response to name-calling? Thought not :)
Lol :)
D.
If you consider it immoral or sinful by your own moral standards, don't try to pass it off as someone else's prejudice.
- IONIAN-GAMES.com -