The ST certainly did not play second fiddle in UK to the Amiga (well for a few years anyway), you only need to look at a lot of ST ports the Amiga got early in it's life.
It's only my recollection of it, which I am happy to admit, could be wrong.:-)
Shiru, thanks for your reply, very interesting.
I'm intrigued as you say that "Some people did their small business", fair enough but didn't everything belong to the state at that time and such activities surely wouldn't have been encouraged?
What penalties (if any) did the clone builders face? I am aware that there were no copyright laws as such, but making a few boards for a bit of cash surely would be an underground activity?
Initially the business wasn't official, of course, and because it was almost 1990s, there was not too much control at the time. After 1991 many small (sort of) official companies arose, who produced and sell ZX clones and other computers, including Scorpion, MicroArt (ATM Turbo), Nemo (KAY), etc.
Here always were copyright laws, however people mostly wasn't aware about them until end of 1990s, and of course foreign copyrights weren't meant much at the time. Almost whole semiconductor electronics and computers area, as well as many others, were full of cloning, licensed or not.
Was DIY electronics a popular pastime in the former USSR?
How did information flow?
Yes, and the home computers here actually arose from DIY electronics, including ZX clones. There were some magazines about DIY, some of them published some articles about ZX clones (including full schematics of some), and others promoted their own 8080-based DIY computers (some of them were also mass-produced in form of kits and assembled computers). Publications related to ZX in the magazines continued until early 2000s.
I think you're both partly right. The ST market peaked earlier than the Amiga one, probably around 1990; it was always the cheaper machine, but the margin by which Commodore could be undercut declined with time. The Amiga didn't really take off until the price drop and Batman bundle in 1989 but was still selling well - at least in the UK and Germany - until Commodore went bust in 1994.
Worldwide sales of the two machines are pretty similar; around the six million mark according to most sources.
I can say that Zx Spectrum is widely used in Turkey until the end of 80's[...]
This is really interesting to hear!
Do you happen to know if there were more Turkish Spectrum programs other than the ZX Spectrum+ User Companion Cassette you kindly provided earlier?
I would love to archive any further titles.
Here in the Netherlands, the C64 certainly wasn't THE king of the hill...
I was in a dutch group for a time, well the sheer amount of c64 talent from the lowlands was good, flimbo's quest , troddlers and of course the might maniacs of noise etc are dutch :)
and demo groups such as blackmail etc.
I remember going to a demo party in 95 and they had it in some local computer hall or something in Utrecht :) .
it wasn't even the fragile machines. it was the fact you knew people who coded etc LOCALLY, so there was a sense of community I guess.. that's where the c64 differed from other machines, like it or not.. + the fact people used modems far more , all my dutch friends did anyway.
I'd like to know the percentage of people who actually coded / drew / wrote music.. as opposed to just playing games on a machine, that'd be interesting.
from being in a demo group which c64 countries ruled the roost..hhmmm >
aussie land = 80 % - 90% pretty sure it was c64 I bet
Germany / US / Canada / norway / finland / holland / sweden (and nordic countries) = c64 stronghold
Well... the C64 may have had a lot of it's sales in the US, but it's a big country and there were areas where people had never even seen a C64.
Various TRS-80s and Apples were most common where I grew up because there were dealers. I knew a few people with other machines. A TI-99/4A, a VIC20, and a Timex Sinclair 1000.
A local dealer tried selling the Franklin and NEC but I didn't know anyone that had one. I knew where there was an Atari dealership (2 hours away) but never knew anyone that had one. The only Ataris I was aware of were 2600s. One friend had an Adam... for about 2 weeks and it was returned because it erased their Smart Basic tape.
Funny think about the Timex Sinclairs... I don't think a lot of people even realized it wasn't just a Timex. Sinclair? Who's that? The TS1000 I knew about was at a friend's yard sale for $2... and no takers. They had purchased the TS1000 and promptly went out and bought the TI-99/4A after that experience.
While the TS1000 was the first computer to sell over a million units in a year in the US, so many people were put off by it that it killed Timex.
Even if the first model had been the more capable TS1500 instead of the TS1000 I don't think Timex Sinclair would have survived. People wanted something more competitive with the other machines only cheaper.
I didn't even know anyone with a C64 until 1997 when I moved to a different area to attend a University. I had seen one demoed once when I was in high school but that's it. A lot of my friends from that time had Tandy Color Computers.
Spectrum, Jupiter Ace, Oric, etc... were just names we saw in a magazine every now and then. We saw reviews of the Panasonic JR200, VZ200, and many other machines but I never even saw any of them until I joined ebay.
In Spain the Spectrum was the undisputed number one. It's the old computer in collective memory, and it's often said "in the times of the Spectrum", but never "in the times of Amstrad" or anything else. Amstrad CPC was probably number two, and MSX number 3. [...]
I said Amstrad was probably number 2 because, while this was the case with software, in terms of machines MSX sales might have been similar.
Update: after a big discussion with people from an spanish Amstrad forum (here), it's been proved that the CPC range sold lots in Spain, quite possibly even surpassing the total Spectrum sales. But many of those CPCs were used in schools or in professional environments, so the speccy kept its position in popularity as a home computer.
Can't read spanish so I just let Altavista run through the first and last page of that topic (because I didn't want to read all pages). Looks like there's quite a heated debate going on ...
To begin with, I'd like to say that I don't care if Spectrum was best or worse selling than Amstrad in my country, the question is that I love Spectrum!
But according to Micromania, a very selling monthly multi-plattform spanish magazine (Spectrum, Amstrad, Commodore, MSX),since 1985, most of the game reviews and maps were from Spectrum games till the end of the 8 bits age (1991-92). If Micromania editors included more Speccy articles than for other plattforms in their magazine is a sign that readers were mostly Spectrum users...
We can think of others games magazines for Spectrum or Amstrad and we can see that there were more mags for Spectrum than for CPC in Spain.
Update: after a big discussion with people from an spanish Amstrad forum (here), it's been proved that the CPC range sold lots in Spain, quite possibly even surpassing the total Spectrum sales. But many of those CPCs were used in schools or in professional environments, so the speccy kept its position in popularity as a home computer.
I read in one of the posts that the Spectrum and Amstrad arrived at about the same time in Spain, so that may well help to explain whythey both did so well. In the UK the ZX had quite a healthy head start.
Here in greece things started off with the texas instruments Ti99-a and the Atari XL 400 and 800 and Oric Atmos. But it was only a few peoples priviledge to own such a computer. Later the Amstrad kicked in as a "proffecional" solution due to being sold together with a screen. It's high price though made it loose ground to the Spectrum ZX and later even more when the + came out.
One thing that also helped was the ease of copying tapes around instead of 3" disks which cost too expencive. Original games were always a problem. Ariving very late unless you had relatives in England. The commodore was not so popular here but it gained ground after the first amiga. Msx had a small share in the market too due to its good sound at the time and many studios used the MSXII as subtitles machine. If you ask me it was the Spectrum leading followed by the Atari ST and the Amiga in 16bit time.
Can't read spanish so I just let Altavista run through the first and last page of that topic (because I didn't want to read all pages). Looks like there's quite a heated debate going on ...
Indeed! ;)
And I must add that my last sentence about popularity is just my opinion (some people in that forum are very angry because I "write non corroborated and non constrasted contundent affirmations" :p ).
I read in one of the posts that the Spectrum and Amstrad arrived at about the same time in Spain, so that may well help to explain whythey both did so well. In the UK the ZX had quite a healthy head start.
I think the Spectrum arrived before, probably in 1983, but the economic situations of many families wasn't too good back then, and there wasn't as much hype as in the UK, so it didn't get such a great advantage.
Spanish forums seem good for "heated debate", I used to put it down to just my inadequate command of the language and me mis-interpreting things, but as I've learned more, I don't seem to be stumbling on fewer flame wars :-)
What matters is the Amstrad has some brotherhood to the Speccy, a Z80 powered machine that wasn't shaped like a brown bread bin. So really, the Amstradites should be counted as allies :-)
Quite a few Amstradites don't seem to have much love for the Speccy though, what with them bitching about getting ports with "crappy Spectrum graphics". They just have to acknowledge the fact that the Spectrum was simply more important to the British software industry, shame about the consequences for Amstrad as far as game ports were concerned but tough luck. Don't get me wrong, I like the CPC, but these people should just build a time machine then and right those numerous "wrongs" ...
Quite a few Amstradites don't seem to have much love for the Speccy though, what with them bitching about getting ports with "crappy Spectrum graphics". They just have to acknowledge the fact that the Spectrum was simply more important to the British software industry, shame about the consequences for Amstrad as far as game ports were concerned but tough luck. Don't get me wrong, I like the CPC, but these people should just build a time machine then and right those numerous "wrongs" ...
As someone who had both a Spectrum and CPC, my main gripe with the latter was that it was invariably just treated as a ports machine. Comparatively few games were designed with it principally in mind; although some of the exceptions could be quite stunning, hinting at what might have been.
Still, at least by having both machines, I never had to suffer the indignity of a Spec-port; I just bought the Spectrum version anyway. ;)
In my experience in Portugal it was the Spectrum (whatever model and whatever variation including the Timex)
Most people I knew that had a computer had some sort of Spectrum. Usually 48k or +2/+2a. I had a +2. I had one cousin with a C64 who couldn't figure out how to use it and asked me to show him how. I asked him for the manual. He said he didn't have it. So I said damned if I knew (I did try doing LOAD "". What the heck. That didn't work). I saw an Amstrad store once and probably saw a few Amigas/Atari STs in a window of a shop or two and then there were odd computers I can't even remember what they were and here and there someone had a computer resembling a PC like an Olivetti or whatever.
I think the less popular machines are much more interesting. New ground is being broken on the Oric. I think if BuzzSaw is ever finished that'll about wrap it up for what can be done on the Speccy.
As someone who had both a Spectrum and CPC, my main gripe with the latter was that it was invariably just treated as a ports machine. Comparatively few games were designed with it principally in mind; although some of the exceptions could be quite stunning, hinting at what might have been.
Still, at least by having both machines, I never had to suffer the indignity of a Spec-port; I just bought the Spectrum version anyway. ;)
Megablasters (Bomberman clone) at the end of the CPC's life was excellent and was designed for it..
What matters is the Amstrad has some brotherhood to the Speccy, a Z80 powered machine that wasn't shaped like a brown bread bin. So really, the Amstradites should be counted as allies :-)
I've still got my CPC464. I think it's a great machine. Straightforward to code for and some brilliant assembler software.
In Australia it was C64 miles in front, with the Amstrad a long way behind in second place.
In 1987 for instance, two-thirds of all personal computers sold that year were Commodores.
There were a few other systems ; the Sega SC-1000H, basically a Master System with a keyboard, the VTech VZ-200 which had fast but very crude graphics, the VIC-20 was popular before the C64 came out, and the Laser System-80 (copy of the TRS-80) was the first really well known system, even the Commodore 16 sold well one Christmas (but not the Plus 4).
Ataris after the VCS and before the ST were pretty well unknown ; most people in Australia have never heard of the Sinclair Spectrum, it was only imported for about six months by the BBC distributor.
Sega SC-3000H. Which used the same motherboard as the Master System (and the Colecovision), but had one less resolution mode.
I believe the Japanese dumped / gave away many MSX systems in Russia (to schools and colleges).
I think Sinclair Research sold the licence of the Spectrum to Didatik in Yugoslavia just before the company was sold to Amstrad.
Yes, Spectrum is assembled in Yugoslavia (Slovenia, more precisely), by Sinclair licenses, about 1984, 85.
As far as I know, it was just a Spectrum 16k, that was too expensive and didnt sell well.
Most of the ex-yu spectrum fans, purchased their machines from Britain and Germany or on the black market.
Comments
It's only my recollection of it, which I am happy to admit, could be wrong.:-)
Here always were copyright laws, however people mostly wasn't aware about them until end of 1990s, and of course foreign copyrights weren't meant much at the time. Almost whole semiconductor electronics and computers area, as well as many others, were full of cloning, licensed or not.
Yes, and the home computers here actually arose from DIY electronics, including ZX clones. There were some magazines about DIY, some of them published some articles about ZX clones (including full schematics of some), and others promoted their own 8080-based DIY computers (some of them were also mass-produced in form of kits and assembled computers). Publications related to ZX in the magazines continued until early 2000s.
Worldwide sales of the two machines are pretty similar; around the six million mark according to most sources.
This is really interesting to hear!
Do you happen to know if there were more Turkish Spectrum programs other than the ZX Spectrum+ User Companion Cassette you kindly provided earlier?
I would love to archive any further titles.
I was in a dutch group for a time, well the sheer amount of c64 talent from the lowlands was good, flimbo's quest , troddlers and of course the might maniacs of noise etc are dutch :)
and demo groups such as blackmail etc.
I remember going to a demo party in 95 and they had it in some local computer hall or something in Utrecht :) .
it wasn't even the fragile machines. it was the fact you knew people who coded etc LOCALLY, so there was a sense of community I guess.. that's where the c64 differed from other machines, like it or not.. + the fact people used modems far more , all my dutch friends did anyway.
I'd like to know the percentage of people who actually coded / drew / wrote music.. as opposed to just playing games on a machine, that'd be interesting.
Well... the C64 may have had a lot of it's sales in the US, but it's a big country and there were areas where people had never even seen a C64.
Various TRS-80s and Apples were most common where I grew up because there were dealers. I knew a few people with other machines. A TI-99/4A, a VIC20, and a Timex Sinclair 1000.
A local dealer tried selling the Franklin and NEC but I didn't know anyone that had one. I knew where there was an Atari dealership (2 hours away) but never knew anyone that had one. The only Ataris I was aware of were 2600s. One friend had an Adam... for about 2 weeks and it was returned because it erased their Smart Basic tape.
Funny think about the Timex Sinclairs... I don't think a lot of people even realized it wasn't just a Timex. Sinclair? Who's that? The TS1000 I knew about was at a friend's yard sale for $2... and no takers. They had purchased the TS1000 and promptly went out and bought the TI-99/4A after that experience.
While the TS1000 was the first computer to sell over a million units in a year in the US, so many people were put off by it that it killed Timex.
Even if the first model had been the more capable TS1500 instead of the TS1000 I don't think Timex Sinclair would have survived. People wanted something more competitive with the other machines only cheaper.
I didn't even know anyone with a C64 until 1997 when I moved to a different area to attend a University. I had seen one demoed once when I was in high school but that's it. A lot of my friends from that time had Tandy Color Computers.
Spectrum, Jupiter Ace, Oric, etc... were just names we saw in a magazine every now and then. We saw reviews of the Panasonic JR200, VZ200, and many other machines but I never even saw any of them until I joined ebay.
Update: after a big discussion with people from an spanish Amstrad forum (here), it's been proved that the CPC range sold lots in Spain, quite possibly even surpassing the total Spectrum sales. But many of those CPCs were used in schools or in professional environments, so the speccy kept its position in popularity as a home computer.
But according to Micromania, a very selling monthly multi-plattform spanish magazine (Spectrum, Amstrad, Commodore, MSX),since 1985, most of the game reviews and maps were from Spectrum games till the end of the 8 bits age (1991-92). If Micromania editors included more Speccy articles than for other plattforms in their magazine is a sign that readers were mostly Spectrum users...
We can think of others games magazines for Spectrum or Amstrad and we can see that there were more mags for Spectrum than for CPC in Spain.
I read in one of the posts that the Spectrum and Amstrad arrived at about the same time in Spain, so that may well help to explain whythey both did so well. In the UK the ZX had quite a healthy head start.
One thing that also helped was the ease of copying tapes around instead of 3" disks which cost too expencive. Original games were always a problem. Ariving very late unless you had relatives in England. The commodore was not so popular here but it gained ground after the first amiga. Msx had a small share in the market too due to its good sound at the time and many studios used the MSXII as subtitles machine. If you ask me it was the Spectrum leading followed by the Atari ST and the Amiga in 16bit time.
Indeed! ;)
And I must add that my last sentence about popularity is just my opinion (some people in that forum are very angry because I "write non corroborated and non constrasted contundent affirmations" :p ).
I think the Spectrum arrived before, probably in 1983, but the economic situations of many families wasn't too good back then, and there wasn't as much hype as in the UK, so it didn't get such a great advantage.
Spanish forums seem good for "heated debate", I used to put it down to just my inadequate command of the language and me mis-interpreting things, but as I've learned more, I don't seem to be stumbling on fewer flame wars :-)
What matters is the Amstrad has some brotherhood to the Speccy, a Z80 powered machine that wasn't shaped like a brown bread bin. So really, the Amstradites should be counted as allies :-)
As said in speccy.org (spanish forum), the official date was april 1983.
I read somewhere that Spectrum was 'the first to be born and the last to die'...
As someone who had both a Spectrum and CPC, my main gripe with the latter was that it was invariably just treated as a ports machine. Comparatively few games were designed with it principally in mind; although some of the exceptions could be quite stunning, hinting at what might have been.
Still, at least by having both machines, I never had to suffer the indignity of a Spec-port; I just bought the Spectrum version anyway. ;)
Most people I knew that had a computer had some sort of Spectrum. Usually 48k or +2/+2a. I had a +2. I had one cousin with a C64 who couldn't figure out how to use it and asked me to show him how. I asked him for the manual. He said he didn't have it. So I said damned if I knew (I did try doing LOAD "". What the heck. That didn't work). I saw an Amstrad store once and probably saw a few Amigas/Atari STs in a window of a shop or two and then there were odd computers I can't even remember what they were and here and there someone had a computer resembling a PC like an Olivetti or whatever.
Megablasters (Bomberman clone) at the end of the CPC's life was excellent and was designed for it..
In 1987 for instance, two-thirds of all personal computers sold that year were Commodores.
There were a few other systems ; the Sega SC-1000H, basically a Master System with a keyboard, the VTech VZ-200 which had fast but very crude graphics, the VIC-20 was popular before the C64 came out, and the Laser System-80 (copy of the TRS-80) was the first really well known system, even the Commodore 16 sold well one Christmas (but not the Plus 4).
Ataris after the VCS and before the ST were pretty well unknown ; most people in Australia have never heard of the Sinclair Spectrum, it was only imported for about six months by the BBC distributor.
I believe the Japanese dumped / gave away many MSX systems in Russia (to schools and colleges).
I think Sinclair Research sold the licence of the Spectrum to Didatik in Yugoslavia just before the company was sold to Amstrad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didaktik
Buy yes, I have heard something about selling the license to Yugoslavia
As far as I know, it was just a Spectrum 16k, that was too expensive and didnt sell well.
Most of the ex-yu spectrum fans, purchased their machines from Britain and Germany or on the black market.
http://zx-pk.ru/
Do you mean Delta computer? Some info I found at http://www.skyscrapercity.com/archive/index.php/t-242331.html and it look seriously. I can't find "normal" picture of it, but it looks like the one at http://softhouse.speccy.cz/index_en.htm. It was very common here (Slovakia) too.
And Didaktik never had any licence as I know, they just get to source of Ferranti ULA chips for the Gama computer. Little miracle I think ;-)