What are the legalities of that? It seems it's not really any different that just direct downloading the MP3 illegally and not bothering with the whole conversion process...It's not like the artist or record company sees any of that pound.
But I own the record, and they made they royalties on the record when it was first sold. Furthermore many of those illegal downloads have awful sound quality, even for an MP3.
However, legally its a grey area that a consensus has not been reached on. This message seen on the centre of many records is also so vague that its hard to tell.
All rights of the manufacturer and of the owner of the recorded work reserved. Unauthorized public performance, broadcasting, and copying of this record prohibited
As an owner of the record are you and owner of the recorded work?
What are the rights of the owner given that you are the owner of the recorded work?
But I own the record, and they made they royalties on the record when it was first sold.
The point was they could have had 2 sales, the original and yours....the second hand market lost them a sale....only 1 copy was ever sold...it's about the content not the 3oz of plastic..right?
EDIT: It was in the news recently here that game manufacturers are very unhappy about the second hand game market (and the fact more sales are made in the 2nd hand market than originals) and were/are talking about a 2nd hand 'tax' being added to new games.
Furthermore many of those illegal downloads have awful sound quality, even for an MP3.
You just need a better source :)
As an owner of the record are you and owner of the recorded work?
What are the rights of the owner given that you are the owner of the recorded work?
That's where I was going....you only own the 'physical object' not the work on it...that still belongs to the artist/record company.
Laws that were put in place before digital media arrived....which screws the current situation up surely....if you don't have a physical object how can you own 'an original' ....and if you made a copy...and lost the original file in a hard drive crash.....are you now in possession of an illegal copy...even though you paid for it....?
Laws that were put in place before digital media arrived....which screws the current situation up surely....if you don't have a physical object how can you own 'an original' ....and if you made a copy...and lost the original file in a hard drive crash.....are you now in possession of an illegal copy...even though you paid for it....?
nope , they keep a record of all sales for that purpose.
the bottom line of all this, you wanna support the artist, then buy it from a proper / reputable shop etc.. thats all it really boils down to.
not everyone is on mega bucks or image based music , regardless of the creativity behind it , bills still need paying and studio stuff is FAR from cheap.
the thing about " unauthorised " in the middle of a record for a number of reason..
partly to cover the copyright thing...
partly to cover getting royalties from radio stations / tv companies etc etc
the record / plastic itself is just the medium that it's transmitted , much like a cd / dvd for a game.
nope , they keep a record of all sales for that purpose.
Aye but that is voluntary rather than law...isn't it?
As you say if you support the artist..buy an original, not an illegal download..or a 2nd hand copy.
I really don't personally see a whole lot of difference 'morally' in an illegal download and a orginal copy bought at the flea market....in both cases the 'owner' sees none of my money.
well it serves the purpose of helping do their accounts incase they are ever audited... so they are doing it for that, they might as well include that as well.
considering it's a creative industry , it always makes me laugh the amount of paperwork / licensing and just general agreement paperwork involved.
so is there a 'hoo haaa' in the Uk about 2nd hand console games as there is here?
I suppose that is a big problem (I've never bought an original xbox360 game for example, I go to GAMESTOP or blockbuster and buy a used one for $18 or so) rather than pay $60 for a new one (I might have to wait a month or 2 for it so show up).
Example: I got Fallout 3 last weekend for $17.99....that one disk has probably been sold 4 or 5 times over....every time you go in the store you see people 'reselling' used games they bought a few weeks ago to get more used games..
Reminds me of the early days of video when they were too expensive for individuals to own...you only ever rented...and original video cassette was 60 quid + (and a blank video cassette was 20 quid +)
If games makers do add a tax to their games it might end up going back to people renting rather than owning (and so the 2nd hand market would also collapse).
Yup since I've been in the US I've only bought 6 new games, technically 10 since 2 of those were multipacks for the PS2.
Basically Gekido Urban Fighters for PS1, I had to have it new as it's quite hard to get, and playing the GBA sequel is what actually got me to buy this.
The Grand Theft auto Trilogy, and Mortal Kombat Kollection for PS2.
and Calling, Resident Evil Remake, and Resident Evil Zero for the Wii.
But I own 87 console games spread across those 3 systems, well ones that I have a physical copy of anyway. Mainly because they cost a fraction of what they do brand new and I don't have much cash these days. If I see a second hand game for $4.99, and a brand new copy of the same game next to it for $29.99 I know exactly which one I'm going to purchase.
So somebody has lost a lot of money because of me.......apparently anyway :D
If there's no copying involved, then it's impossible for it to be copyright infringement.
Personal copies are tolerated so long as you own the original.
Anything else is just hand-waving - especially once you get into the arguments surrounding Fair Use (which is irrelevant to the issue of second-hand goods).
If people want to stop the second-hand market, then the answer is to make something that people don't want to get rid of.
the bottom line of all this, you wanna support the artist, then buy it from a proper / reputable shop etc.. thats all it really boils down to.
there's even a problem with this, I agree with that sentiment but there have been many occasions where I would have been willing to pay for an original copy of an album but the problem is they have been out of print for years and rare or ?100+ on amazon new/used sellers...but someone has put the album up for download free on a blog/forum etc...so I'm gonna download it for free, almost against my will (if that makes sense)
I've been using 7 Digital alot recently - they always seem to have a lot of deals on newly released albums (typically going for ?5, rather than ?7.99 or ?8.99 on iTunes) so I always check there first:
If there's no copying involved, then it's impossible for it to be copyright infringement.
Well doesn't the 'you are not allowed to broadcast this song without permission' fall into the category of copyright infringement (you haven't copied anything)..or is that another law employed?
I brought Final Fantasy VIII on the PSP via the Playstation store last week - only the second downloadable game I've brought - Monkey Island on the 360 via Live was the first.
All my PC games bar a couple are originals.. mainly brought second hand! (except for The Sims 2, expansion packs and Sims 3)
Normally, I would download but my PSP is hack proof..
Well doesn't the 'you are not allowed to broadcast this song without permission' fall into the category of copyright infringement (you haven't copied anything)..or is that another law employed?
I'm sure there's a gazillion copyright-related arguments on WOSF and CSS you can browse through to get that answer :) Bottom line is that it's difficult to legally justify a lot of things that people want to do with other people's audio and video. Usually it boils down to the fact that you don't own what you think you own, and the act of copying covers an awful lot of methods.
And most of it is moot because it's so small-scale that the powers-that-be won't be interested in what you do, leaving you to determine for yourself what is right and wrong.
I'm sure there's a gazillion copyright-related arguments on WOSF and CSS you can browse through to get that answer :) Bottom line is that it's difficult to legally justify a lot of things that people want to do with other people's audio and video. Usually it boils down to the fact that you don't own what you think you own, and the act of copying covers an awful lot of methods.
Well you made the statement it was impossible....I assumed you had the knowledge to answer the question.
That's the thing though...in the case of games it is not small scale...more sales are made in the 2nd hand market here (apparently) than in the original market...
Should companies with broken business plans be protected? Why force people to keep (or throw away) what they do not want? All they have to do is make a product that people don't want to get rid of. Why should it be one rule for the entertainment industry, but another for the DIY industry? If it's absurd to be legally prevented from selling old tools in a garage sale, then should it be just as absurd when it comes to old CDs and video?
Games producers are just a bit pissed because the major games retailers cottoned on to the fact it was pure profit for them and the short lifespan of most games, coupled with the high retail price, made it exceptionally tempting for mainstream consumers.
None of those self same games companies gave a monkeys when it was only second hand shops selling them on. And as much as they'd love to somehow make it illegal, they don't really have a leg to stand on. The smarter ones are waking up to this and trying to add value to games as DLC for long enough to get players to hold on to them.
Should companies with broken business plans be protected? Why force people to keep (or throw away) what they do not want? All they have to do is make a product that people don't want to get rid of. Why should it be one rule for the entertainment industry, but another for the DIY industry? If it's absurd to be legally prevented from selling old tools in a garage sale, then should it be just as absurd when it comes to old CDs and video?
Well there is the issue of wear and tear.....games/music/novels etc..(the content not the media) does not age and does not lose it's artistic value (Ignoring 80s hair bands).
A used TV or tool has limited life and limited value because of that..and a time will come when it no longer functions...it has a short life relative to an 'entertainment item'
A used song ..it could be argued...is timeless (and can be copied...which a hammer can't)....it will sound the same 300yrs from now as it did the day it was first released.
If you want an industry to produce new stuff then you have to protect the old stuff...or they would never make any money and so...no new stuff.
A bit like those everlasting socks in the 1930s....the company that made them got bought out by a big sock company and they then 'killed' the idea because they knew long term they would be damaging their business if they sold 'everlasting socks'.
A bit like those everlasting socks in the 1930s....the company that made them got bought out by a big sock company and they then idea 'killed' because they knew long term they would be damaging their business if they sold 'everlasting socks'.
(puts cornishdavey hat on :)
Same with toothpaste, they can make a toothpaste which always protects your teeth but if they did then they would lose millions/billions of pounds as people wouldnt need to buy that many tubes !
Same with toothpaste, they can make a toothpaste which always protects your teeth but if they did then they would lose millions/billions of pounds as people wouldnt need to buy that many tubes !
Cornish pasty hat or not..it's very true.
Same with cars, (we all know their are far better engines than the internal combustion engine we've been stuck with since the invention of the car), PCs (the desktop box hasn't changed a whole lot in the last 20yrs), cigarettes.....still legal because of the tax revenue....savings to health insurance...yep they did a report showing how people that smoked saved us all money by dying earlier.
Industry will hold back development if they are making a profit on the old technology.
...ultimate held back Knight lore as they were worried it would effect sales of Sabre wulf etc :)
If a new PC games 35 quid i'll probably wait to get a second hand copy. If a new games 12 quid i'll probably buy it anyway despite perhaps not liking it as i'll think 'only 12 quid...' etc.
Same for music, when albums were about 12-14 quid i thought sod that, theyre taking the mick. You can get some new albums now for about 7-8 quid which isnt bad.
But some of the prices of brand new PC games are ridiculous
Agree with that, if they dropped the price they would make more sales....the DVD industry is a great example of that....dropping the price of DVD movies to 10-15 bucks encouraged people to buy rather than rent....so now a LOT of the rental places have closed down..and people switched from just renting for 5 bucks to buying for 10 or 15 and owning forever. Many movies make more on the DVD release than the Theatre release now.
The game issue and 2nd market issue could be attacked in the same way.....drop the price..people buy more originals rather than copies...etc...the 2nd hand shops go the way the video shops went.
For a fair while i used to buy dvds like i was 'renting' them. Eg i would buy one, watch it once (or it would gather dust for weeks) and then after just one watch it sits there forever. Waste of money
I did turn to renting because of that reason but IF dvds were quite cheap i would go back to buying em (even though i would perhaps watch them just once or twice in some cases).
I must admit on amazon i tend to buy a fair few things second hand now (its better than ebay i think) and just waiting a week extra or so knocks off a tenner off the price of some items.
If you want an industry to produce new stuff then you have to protect the old stuff...or they would never make any money and so...no new stuff.
No not really because if their are turning a huge profit on the old stuff will they be encouraged to innovate with new stuff?
If they are not making money out of the old stuff then what way is there to make money than produce new stuff?
My personal opinion is with old records is that they had the chance to make their money the first time around so quit gripping.
If I buy and move into a house next week that was originally built by Barrets the builders in 1983, then you would not get Barrets saying.... aye we designed that therefore give us a cut or the sale is illegal.
If I buy and move into a house next week that was originally built by Barrets the builders in 1983, then you would not get Barrets saying.... aye we designed that therefore give us a cut or the sale is illegal.
Yeah agree with that. Same for music/films, once i buy that film/music i can play it as many times as i want.
If radio/television show that movie, or play that tune then the artist gets a small percentage of each play dont they ?
But when i physically buy it then i can do with it what i want ? I can watch it 1000 times for nothing extra, i can get friends to watch it for free (Yeah i know i cant watch it on an oil rig or a pub etc !).
I think some of these huge companies are taking the mick big time. Saying profits etc are bad ? Well stop giving silly money to some idiot like Robbie Williams then ! Who got a huge record deal and after the first album he released the rest bombed.
If I buy and move into a house next week that was originally built by Barrets the builders in 1983, then you would not get Barrets saying.... aye we designed that therefore give us a cut or the sale is illegal.
Houses have no copyright law...you own a house..you DON'T own copyrighted material. But using your analogy....
I might own the house 6 acres of land I have...however I do not own the mineral rights to the land....the oil company do (it is EXTREMELY difficult to find land in Texas where it sells with the mineral rights.)
The mineral rights = the copyrighted material...you own the land but not the rights to what is in it....you own the record but not the material that's on it.
Agree with that, if they dropped the price they would make more sales....the DVD industry is a great example of that....dropping the price of DVD movies to 10-15 bucks encouraged people to buy rather than rent....so now a LOT of the rental places have closed down..and people switched from just renting for 5 bucks to buying for 10 or 15 and owning forever. Many movies make more on the DVD release than the Theatre release now.
The game issue and 2nd market issue could be attacked in the same way.....drop the price..people buy more originals rather than copies...etc...the 2nd hand shops go the way the video shops went.
Personally I think Netflix (I think the equivalent is called Luv Movies in England?) is killing the rental places, pay $9.99 a month and have as many DVD's in that time as you can watch, the only thing that slows it down is posting them back and waiting for the next one on the list to arrive, you can have up to 2 at a time, but I think if you pay more than the standard $9.99 you can have more than 2?. But all the postage is pre paid, so you don't pay anything on it. You also have your instant play list which you can watch anytime on your PC or through the Wii with a disc they send you (which is also free) as many times as you like until you remove it from the list yourself, so technically until you stop your netflix subscription you have that movie forever anyway. You may not have the box but you have a pretty picture of it on the screen before you watch the movie.
I think the people who do Netflix are going to start doing one like this with games as well (and AFAIK there's already a service like that here in the USA, can't remember what it's called though? I just never got it cos' I didn't have a new enough system when the ads were on. Have no idea if it's still going though haven't seen a TV ad for it or an online ad for a couple of years now?).
Comments
But I own the record, and they made they royalties on the record when it was first sold. Furthermore many of those illegal downloads have awful sound quality, even for an MP3.
However, legally its a grey area that a consensus has not been reached on. This message seen on the centre of many records is also so vague that its hard to tell.
As an owner of the record are you and owner of the recorded work?
What are the rights of the owner given that you are the owner of the recorded work?
The point was they could have had 2 sales, the original and yours....the second hand market lost them a sale....only 1 copy was ever sold...it's about the content not the 3oz of plastic..right?
EDIT: It was in the news recently here that game manufacturers are very unhappy about the second hand game market (and the fact more sales are made in the 2nd hand market than originals) and were/are talking about a 2nd hand 'tax' being added to new games.
You just need a better source :)
That's where I was going....you only own the 'physical object' not the work on it...that still belongs to the artist/record company.
Laws that were put in place before digital media arrived....which screws the current situation up surely....if you don't have a physical object how can you own 'an original' ....and if you made a copy...and lost the original file in a hard drive crash.....are you now in possession of an illegal copy...even though you paid for it....?
nope , they keep a record of all sales for that purpose.
the bottom line of all this, you wanna support the artist, then buy it from a proper / reputable shop etc.. thats all it really boils down to.
not everyone is on mega bucks or image based music , regardless of the creativity behind it , bills still need paying and studio stuff is FAR from cheap.
the thing about " unauthorised " in the middle of a record for a number of reason..
partly to cover the copyright thing...
partly to cover getting royalties from radio stations / tv companies etc etc
the record / plastic itself is just the medium that it's transmitted , much like a cd / dvd for a game.
Aye but that is voluntary rather than law...isn't it?
As you say if you support the artist..buy an original, not an illegal download..or a 2nd hand copy.
I really don't personally see a whole lot of difference 'morally' in an illegal download and a orginal copy bought at the flea market....in both cases the 'owner' sees none of my money.
considering it's a creative industry , it always makes me laugh the amount of paperwork / licensing and just general agreement paperwork involved.
I suppose that is a big problem (I've never bought an original xbox360 game for example, I go to GAMESTOP or blockbuster and buy a used one for $18 or so) rather than pay $60 for a new one (I might have to wait a month or 2 for it so show up).
Example: I got Fallout 3 last weekend for $17.99....that one disk has probably been sold 4 or 5 times over....every time you go in the store you see people 'reselling' used games they bought a few weeks ago to get more used games..
Reminds me of the early days of video when they were too expensive for individuals to own...you only ever rented...and original video cassette was 60 quid + (and a blank video cassette was 20 quid +)
If games makers do add a tax to their games it might end up going back to people renting rather than owning (and so the 2nd hand market would also collapse).
Basically Gekido Urban Fighters for PS1, I had to have it new as it's quite hard to get, and playing the GBA sequel is what actually got me to buy this.
The Grand Theft auto Trilogy, and Mortal Kombat Kollection for PS2.
and Calling, Resident Evil Remake, and Resident Evil Zero for the Wii.
But I own 87 console games spread across those 3 systems, well ones that I have a physical copy of anyway. Mainly because they cost a fraction of what they do brand new and I don't have much cash these days. If I see a second hand game for $4.99, and a brand new copy of the same game next to it for $29.99 I know exactly which one I'm going to purchase.
So somebody has lost a lot of money because of me.......apparently anyway :D
Personal copies are tolerated so long as you own the original.
Anything else is just hand-waving - especially once you get into the arguments surrounding Fair Use (which is irrelevant to the issue of second-hand goods).
If people want to stop the second-hand market, then the answer is to make something that people don't want to get rid of.
there's even a problem with this, I agree with that sentiment but there have been many occasions where I would have been willing to pay for an original copy of an album but the problem is they have been out of print for years and rare or ?100+ on amazon new/used sellers...but someone has put the album up for download free on a blog/forum etc...so I'm gonna download it for free, almost against my will (if that makes sense)
cheers, I'll have a look at that.
Well doesn't the 'you are not allowed to broadcast this song without permission' fall into the category of copyright infringement (you haven't copied anything)..or is that another law employed?
All my PC games bar a couple are originals.. mainly brought second hand! (except for The Sims 2, expansion packs and Sims 3)
Normally, I would download but my PSP is hack proof..
I'm sure there's a gazillion copyright-related arguments on WOSF and CSS you can browse through to get that answer :) Bottom line is that it's difficult to legally justify a lot of things that people want to do with other people's audio and video. Usually it boils down to the fact that you don't own what you think you own, and the act of copying covers an awful lot of methods.
And most of it is moot because it's so small-scale that the powers-that-be won't be interested in what you do, leaving you to determine for yourself what is right and wrong.
there's also the issue of what's right and wrong doesn't necessarily match what is legal and otherwise. But that's a whole different argument :D
;)
Well you made the statement it was impossible....I assumed you had the knowledge to answer the question.
Ha ha i was thinking the same thing.
Just say something controversial like 'copying mp3's is fine and legal...' or 'heres a list of rom sites...' and he'll arrive ;)
Should companies with broken business plans be protected? Why force people to keep (or throw away) what they do not want? All they have to do is make a product that people don't want to get rid of. Why should it be one rule for the entertainment industry, but another for the DIY industry? If it's absurd to be legally prevented from selling old tools in a garage sale, then should it be just as absurd when it comes to old CDs and video?
None of those self same games companies gave a monkeys when it was only second hand shops selling them on. And as much as they'd love to somehow make it illegal, they don't really have a leg to stand on. The smarter ones are waking up to this and trying to add value to games as DLC for long enough to get players to hold on to them.
Well there is the issue of wear and tear.....games/music/novels etc..(the content not the media) does not age and does not lose it's artistic value (Ignoring 80s hair bands).
A used TV or tool has limited life and limited value because of that..and a time will come when it no longer functions...it has a short life relative to an 'entertainment item'
A used song ..it could be argued...is timeless (and can be copied...which a hammer can't)....it will sound the same 300yrs from now as it did the day it was first released.
If you want an industry to produce new stuff then you have to protect the old stuff...or they would never make any money and so...no new stuff.
A bit like those everlasting socks in the 1930s....the company that made them got bought out by a big sock company and they then 'killed' the idea because they knew long term they would be damaging their business if they sold 'everlasting socks'.
(puts cornishdavey hat on :)
Same with toothpaste, they can make a toothpaste which always protects your teeth but if they did then they would lose millions/billions of pounds as people wouldnt need to buy that many tubes !
Cornish pasty hat or not..it's very true.
Same with cars, (we all know their are far better engines than the internal combustion engine we've been stuck with since the invention of the car), PCs (the desktop box hasn't changed a whole lot in the last 20yrs), cigarettes.....still legal because of the tax revenue....savings to health insurance...yep they did a report showing how people that smoked saved us all money by dying earlier.
Industry will hold back development if they are making a profit on the old technology.
...ultimate held back Knight lore as they were worried it would effect sales of Sabre wulf etc :)
If a new PC games 35 quid i'll probably wait to get a second hand copy. If a new games 12 quid i'll probably buy it anyway despite perhaps not liking it as i'll think 'only 12 quid...' etc.
Same for music, when albums were about 12-14 quid i thought sod that, theyre taking the mick. You can get some new albums now for about 7-8 quid which isnt bad.
But some of the prices of brand new PC games are ridiculous
there are? that's news to me.
what fuel source has the energy density of gasoline and is as simple to convert into rotary motion?
The game issue and 2nd market issue could be attacked in the same way.....drop the price..people buy more originals rather than copies...etc...the 2nd hand shops go the way the video shops went.
I did turn to renting because of that reason but IF dvds were quite cheap i would go back to buying em (even though i would perhaps watch them just once or twice in some cases).
I must admit on amazon i tend to buy a fair few things second hand now (its better than ebay i think) and just waiting a week extra or so knocks off a tenner off the price of some items.
No not really because if their are turning a huge profit on the old stuff will they be encouraged to innovate with new stuff?
If they are not making money out of the old stuff then what way is there to make money than produce new stuff?
My personal opinion is with old records is that they had the chance to make their money the first time around so quit gripping.
If I buy and move into a house next week that was originally built by Barrets the builders in 1983, then you would not get Barrets saying.... aye we designed that therefore give us a cut or the sale is illegal.
Yeah agree with that. Same for music/films, once i buy that film/music i can play it as many times as i want.
If radio/television show that movie, or play that tune then the artist gets a small percentage of each play dont they ?
But when i physically buy it then i can do with it what i want ? I can watch it 1000 times for nothing extra, i can get friends to watch it for free (Yeah i know i cant watch it on an oil rig or a pub etc !).
I think some of these huge companies are taking the mick big time. Saying profits etc are bad ? Well stop giving silly money to some idiot like Robbie Williams then ! Who got a huge record deal and after the first album he released the rest bombed.
Houses have no copyright law...you own a house..you DON'T own copyrighted material. But using your analogy....
I might own the house 6 acres of land I have...however I do not own the mineral rights to the land....the oil company do (it is EXTREMELY difficult to find land in Texas where it sells with the mineral rights.)
The mineral rights = the copyrighted material...you own the land but not the rights to what is in it....you own the record but not the material that's on it.
Personally I think Netflix (I think the equivalent is called Luv Movies in England?) is killing the rental places, pay $9.99 a month and have as many DVD's in that time as you can watch, the only thing that slows it down is posting them back and waiting for the next one on the list to arrive, you can have up to 2 at a time, but I think if you pay more than the standard $9.99 you can have more than 2?. But all the postage is pre paid, so you don't pay anything on it. You also have your instant play list which you can watch anytime on your PC or through the Wii with a disc they send you (which is also free) as many times as you like until you remove it from the list yourself, so technically until you stop your netflix subscription you have that movie forever anyway. You may not have the box but you have a pretty picture of it on the screen before you watch the movie.
I think the people who do Netflix are going to start doing one like this with games as well (and AFAIK there's already a service like that here in the USA, can't remember what it's called though? I just never got it cos' I didn't have a new enough system when the ads were on. Have no idea if it's still going though haven't seen a TV ad for it or an online ad for a couple of years now?).