On 2004-10-22 02:15, CKay wrote:
Having just recieved my first rubber 48K Speccy a few weeks ago, and coming from a 128K +2 history, Im amazed at how fiddly it is with keywords... as I used to use 128 basic editor and never 48K...
However, I think it woulda been easier if they just had letter by letter editor in 48K... but like I say, now that I`ve got a 48K in front of me, with the keywords printed it`s not soo bad...
Was keywords a good idea at all?
A lot of people seemed to hate it, but I always rather liked it: no chance of miss-typing a keyword, each keyword only uses one byte, & you could have say:
LET print=10
as a variable without getting an error message (I suppose there could be some debate over whether the last one is really a good thing).
Actually, I will admit when I first started using emulators, I did have difficulty remembering where all the keywords were. I soon found a solution though - I got a nice picture of the Spectrum keyboard off the web, printed it out & stuck on the wall just above my monitor.
[ This Message was edited by: darkman on 2004-10-22 16:00 ]
That's a question of your in-memory representation of the program and nothing to do with the entry method. A keyword on the 128K uses only one byte.
& you could have say:
LET print=10
as a variable without getting an error message (I suppose there could be some debate over whether the last one is really a good thing).
I don't think there's any debate at all about that: it's unquestionably a bad thing (unless you're deliberately trying to write obfuscated code).
I think it`s just having never owned a 48K back in the day, when you haven`t, and have to have keywords on a sheet, or in a book etc etc it seems so hard, anoyying etc
Yet, with the keywords written all over the keys and around them, I can see the sense in it...
In truth I think it was a bad idea, a reasonable typist can do better without the single keyword entry system than with it. For anyone not used to it and trying to follow a listing in a magazine in almost certainly slowed them down rather than made them quicker (I certainly remember many a "hunt the keyword" session!)
Where it was brilliant though is that it encouraged you to explore the machine. Seeing all those lovely words scattered all over the place was enough to get the more curious trying to find out exactly what VAL$ means...
That's a question of your in-memory representation of the program and nothing to do with the entry method. A keyword on the 128K uses only one byte.
Damn, I'd forgotten that. Would they have done that way if keyword entry had been letter by letter in the first place though - did any other machine do it that way?
& you could have say:
LET print=10
as a variable without getting an error message (I suppose there could be some debate over whether the last one is really a good thing).
I don't think there's any debate at all about that: it's unquestionably a bad thing (unless you're deliberately trying to write obfuscated code).
I thought that would be the objection, so I'll concede on that one.
My first point still stands though - I make plenty of mistakes typing!
edit:On reflection, I suppose it might depend on what you're used to. But I know I would rather type in programs on a 48k Spectrum than on (to take an example most people will be familiar with) a BBC.
[ This Message was edited by: darkman on 2004-10-22 18:40 ]
On 2004-10-22 18:12, darkman wrote:
Damn, I'd forgotten that. Would they have done that way if keyword entry had been letter by letter in the first place though - did any other machine do it that way?
On 2004-10-22 18:12, darkman wrote:
Damn, I'd forgotten that. Would they have done that way if keyword entry had been letter by letter in the first place though - did any other machine do it that way?
Yes. Pretty much all of them.
Even GW BASIC on the IBM PC stored the "keywords" as 1-byte so called tokens in memory and on disk. The same goes for MSX 1/2 (whose BASICs were a superset of GW BASIC) They didn't however use the upper half of the character set for it, so that it didn't limit the number of characters like on the Spectrum.
By the way, in Beta Basic you could type in the keywords letter by letter, and after pressing enter the line would be compressed to the Spectrum format, by converting the keywords to their 1 byte equivalents.
In Finland the Commode was the most popular home computer at the time (by far). I must confess that the price was the only thing that made me getting the Spectrum (okay, there was this one guy who had it and recommended it...). If the price of ZX Spectrum would have been higher, I would have bought the Commode (or nothing). So, the fact that the ZX Spectrum were as cheap as it was, was a strong competitive factor and any change in that would have changed the scene completly.
But, the things that I envied in the Commode (and thus the things that I would have liked to have in the Spectrum too) were most of all the sound, more colorful graphics and the disk drive. I liked to looks of the Spectrum and the rubber keyboard was (no, IS) excellent for playing so the bulky look of the Commode never was anything that I desired from my Speccy. But these things are also those which would have given the Spectrum the bigger price tag. So, all in all I must say that the Spectrum was (no, IS) excellent is is was (no, IS). One thing though, the Microdrive. That should really have been something standard...
I've gone on a lot about this in the past, but ever since I learned about the extra video modes of the Timex models, I have felt that it was such a pity that they couldn't have been incorporated into the 128k Spectrums. I can understand that Sinclair didn't want to go the whole hog and incorporate super-duper 24k or 48k sized video modes (and thus increasing the amount of contended memory needed, making it more incompatible with early Spectrums). But the Timex modes already existed, so should have been very cheap to implement. I still lose sleep over this - what a wasted opportunity! ;)
Does any technically minded person know whether it is theoretically possible to modify a 128k Spectrum (or even any Spectrum) to graft on the extra modes? Perhaps swap the Spectrum ULA with a Timex one (or just the PAL Timex version)? Or perhaps it is only possible to modify the Timex models to include the features of the 128k Spectrum, like the ZX Spectrum SE.
Er,
You can.
get a soldering iron, some tagboard, chips etc. and get on with it. Theres no point speculating about what would be good in a speccy if it wouldnt work. try it, and if it works sell it to Amstrad. (or more realisticly, pay amstrad to make you a few)
On 2004-11-02 15:45, guesser wrote:
get a soldering iron, some tagboard, chips etc. and get on with it. Theres no point speculating about what would be good in a speccy if it wouldnt work. try it, and if it works sell it to Amstrad. (or more realisticly, pay amstrad to make you a few)
One small problem...
Everything I know about electronics consists of fuzzy, half remembered details about And / Or gates from the Make a Chip program that came with my Speccy 20 years ago.
Have a look in the emulation section from last week, it does indeed sound that the opposite is true, you can have a Timex, and have uit turned into a 100 percent compatible spectrun 128, with Timex emulated.
Of course you`d need to know z80 I imagine to be able to code onit, but your learning :)
[ This Message was edited by: CKay on 2004-11-03 09:59 ]
Yeah, I'd basically like to end up with a machine the same as the original Spectrum 128, but with the Timex modes bolted on. From machine code (on the existing Timex at least), an OUT command will change the screen mode (I can't remember which port). Then you just need to manipulate the different areas of the memory that correspond to the new screen modes, in order to produce graphics.
As an addition to this, the ROM would need to be modified so as to provide support for the new screen modes in BASIC, and handle memory management (i.e shift the address of the BASIC and variables workspaces according to the current mode). Any volunteers for this work - I'll pay you $5! ;) (Actually this would probably be a project I'd like to have a look at, even though I'd be hopelessly out of my depth and give up after five minutes).
On 2004-11-03 09:56, CKay wrote:
Have a look in the emulation section from last week, it does indeed sound that the opposite is true, you can have a Timex, and have uit turned into a 100 percent compatible spectrun 128, with Timex emulated.
It's certainly not 100% compatible: you've still got the Timex ULA, with the difference that implies (timings, no floating bus, etc).
As an addition to this, the ROM would need to be modified so as to provide support for the new screen modes in BASIC, and handle memory management (i.e shift the address of the BASIC and variables workspaces according to the current mode). Any volunteers for this work - I'll pay you $5! ;)
O/S 64 is a cartridge for the 2068 that supports basic in the 64x24 mode (512x192 pixel). Basic64 is a sw program that augments the basic to support the 512x192 mode and can handle any width fonts -- I've tried 42x24 text, 64x24 text, 128x24 text. You really need a monitor for the 128x24 text, just too fuzzy on a TV. If I remember right, it parks an error handler in there to support line and circle drawing in 512x192 mode too.
On 2004-10-17 20:25, cyborg wrote:
You would need 24k for the video memory under this sysetm - so forget the 16k models.
Speaking as a SAM Coupe programmer used to dealing with 24kb of display memory with nothing but a Z80 running at twice the Speccy speed to push data around... you'd also need an 18MHz Z80 in there if you wanted to do anything cool with the display.
Most SAM stuff had to cheat to get anything nice up and running.
Although, speaking of the SAM, a good compromise might have been something more like SAM Mode 2 display - linear addressing for scanlines, and separate attributes per scanline. Add in a programmable color palette, and you're set.
Why oh why didnt they put a proper keyboard on the spectrum especially the +. Oric managed it with the Atmos that was a beauty both in looks and use it cant have added that much to the price ???????
Redesign Speccy? I guess no. I am happy with it as it is :D
Then again, perhaps 2-bit palette color for each 8x8 block wouldn't be bad, especially if you could still switch to the old mode if the memory is tight.
Comments
You mean like they did on the 128?
LET print=10
as a variable without getting an error message (I suppose there could be some debate over whether the last one is really a good thing).
Actually, I will admit when I first started using emulators, I did have difficulty remembering where all the keywords were. I soon found a solution though - I got a nice picture of the Spectrum keyboard off the web, printed it out & stuck on the wall just above my monitor.
[ This Message was edited by: darkman on 2004-10-22 16:00 ]
That's a question of your in-memory representation of the program and nothing to do with the entry method. A keyword on the 128K uses only one byte.
I don't think there's any debate at all about that: it's unquestionably a bad thing (unless you're deliberately trying to write obfuscated code).
In truth I think it was a bad idea, a reasonable typist can do better without the single keyword entry system than with it. For anyone not used to it and trying to follow a listing in a magazine in almost certainly slowed them down rather than made them quicker (I certainly remember many a "hunt the keyword" session!)
Where it was brilliant though is that it encouraged you to explore the machine. Seeing all those lovely words scattered all over the place was enough to get the more curious trying to find out exactly what VAL$ means...
Damn, I'd forgotten that. Would they have done that way if keyword entry had been letter by letter in the first place though - did any other machine do it that way?
I thought that would be the objection, so I'll concede on that one.
My first point still stands though - I make plenty of mistakes typing!
edit:On reflection, I suppose it might depend on what you're used to. But I know I would rather type in programs on a 48k Spectrum than on (to take an example most people will be familiar with) a BBC.
[ This Message was edited by: darkman on 2004-10-22 18:40 ]
>revolutionary successor to the already
>popular ZX81. Which features would you
>change to the original design?
NOTHING. Spectrum IS revolutionary successor to the ZX81.
Yes. Pretty much all of them.
Oh dear, of course.I Tried to make a stupid joke and forgot the obvious! Too used to rubber....
Dave
Even GW BASIC on the IBM PC stored the "keywords" as 1-byte so called tokens in memory and on disk. The same goes for MSX 1/2 (whose BASICs were a superset of GW BASIC) They didn't however use the upper half of the character set for it, so that it didn't limit the number of characters like on the Spectrum.
By the way, in Beta Basic you could type in the keywords letter by letter, and after pressing enter the line would be compressed to the Spectrum format, by converting the keywords to their 1 byte equivalents.
But, the things that I envied in the Commode (and thus the things that I would have liked to have in the Spectrum too) were most of all the sound, more colorful graphics and the disk drive. I liked to looks of the Spectrum and the rubber keyboard was (no, IS) excellent for playing so the bulky look of the Commode never was anything that I desired from my Speccy. But these things are also those which would have given the Spectrum the bigger price tag. So, all in all I must say that the Spectrum was (no, IS) excellent is is was (no, IS). One thing though, the Microdrive. That should really have been something standard...
Does any technically minded person know whether it is theoretically possible to modify a 128k Spectrum (or even any Spectrum) to graft on the extra modes? Perhaps swap the Spectrum ULA with a Timex one (or just the PAL Timex version)? Or perhaps it is only possible to modify the Timex models to include the features of the 128k Spectrum, like the ZX Spectrum SE.
Oh, things could have been so different...
Er,
You can.
get a soldering iron, some tagboard, chips etc. and get on with it. Theres no point speculating about what would be good in a speccy if it wouldnt work. try it, and if it works sell it to Amstrad. (or more realisticly, pay amstrad to make you a few)
Everything I know about electronics consists of fuzzy, half remembered details about And / Or gates from the Make a Chip program that came with my Speccy 20 years ago.
I think I'll pass on that one for now... ;)
Of course you`d need to know z80 I imagine to be able to code onit, but your learning :)
[ This Message was edited by: CKay on 2004-11-03 09:59 ]
As an addition to this, the ROM would need to be modified so as to provide support for the new screen modes in BASIC, and handle memory management (i.e shift the address of the BASIC and variables workspaces according to the current mode). Any volunteers for this work - I'll pay you $5! ;) (Actually this would probably be a project I'd like to have a look at, even though I'd be hopelessly out of my depth and give up after five minutes).
It's certainly not 100% compatible: you've still got the Timex ULA, with the difference that implies (timings, no floating bus, etc).
O/S 64 is a cartridge for the 2068 that supports basic in the 64x24 mode (512x192 pixel). Basic64 is a sw program that augments the basic to support the 512x192 mode and can handle any width fonts -- I've tried 42x24 text, 64x24 text, 128x24 text. You really need a monitor for the 128x24 text, just too fuzzy on a TV. If I remember right, it parks an error handler in there to support line and circle drawing in 512x192 mode too.
Write games in C using Z88DK and SP1
Speaking as a SAM Coupe programmer used to dealing with 24kb of display memory with nothing but a Z80 running at twice the Speccy speed to push data around... you'd also need an 18MHz Z80 in there if you wanted to do anything cool with the display.
Most SAM stuff had to cheat to get anything nice up and running.
Although, speaking of the SAM, a good compromise might have been something more like SAM Mode 2 display - linear addressing for scanlines, and separate attributes per scanline. Add in a programmable color palette, and you're set.
But then, of course, you'd just have a SAM.
Then again, perhaps 2-bit palette color for each 8x8 block wouldn't be bad, especially if you could still switch to the old mode if the memory is tight.