Technical Help Forums - Am I expecting too much?
A common problem I observe when on technical forums for programming questions is arrogance.
I really hate it when you ask e a simple question, but it is greeted with "where's your code?", in which the asker of 'where's your code' is lauded by other members voting the comment up.
As I see it sometimes the question is so simple it requires no example . For example how do I make a Java panel scrollable in Java (Answer is create: JScrollPane, get its view port by calling getViewPort method, add the panel to the viewport. Then add the scroll pane to the object to what ever visual element you wish it to be contained in).
Its like if I was to ask how to get from London to Oxford by bus, someone asking why are you going, and what are you going to do before and after your journey. It's inconsequential to the problem.
Yet is seems that 'show me the code' is the default response, and if you dare contest this requirement you can forget getting any help. Why oh why?
Even when you do post code, it ends up becoming a critique of the wider problem rather then the question you originally asked. Then follows the p!ssing match of one one-upmanship and cliquey back patting at people begin to argue over why you should never have done it that way and propose ever more verbose solutions, whilst not addressing the original problem.
This is happening to me now on a forum which I asked a question about Java Graphics. Please read it and tell me if I am being reasonable or unreasonable.
Be sure to click 'the show more comments' link in the first posting.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8282416/positioning-java-shape-object-within-a-jpanel
I really hate it when you ask e a simple question, but it is greeted with "where's your code?", in which the asker of 'where's your code' is lauded by other members voting the comment up.
As I see it sometimes the question is so simple it requires no example . For example how do I make a Java panel scrollable in Java (Answer is create: JScrollPane, get its view port by calling getViewPort method, add the panel to the viewport. Then add the scroll pane to the object to what ever visual element you wish it to be contained in).
Its like if I was to ask how to get from London to Oxford by bus, someone asking why are you going, and what are you going to do before and after your journey. It's inconsequential to the problem.
Yet is seems that 'show me the code' is the default response, and if you dare contest this requirement you can forget getting any help. Why oh why?
Even when you do post code, it ends up becoming a critique of the wider problem rather then the question you originally asked. Then follows the p!ssing match of one one-upmanship and cliquey back patting at people begin to argue over why you should never have done it that way and propose ever more verbose solutions, whilst not addressing the original problem.
This is happening to me now on a forum which I asked a question about Java Graphics. Please read it and tell me if I am being reasonable or unreasonable.
Be sure to click 'the show more comments' link in the first posting.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8282416/positioning-java-shape-object-within-a-jpanel
Post edited by Scottie_uk on
Calling all ASCII Art Architects Visit the WOS Wall of Text and contribute: https://www.yourworldoftext.com/wos
Comments
Never surprises me neither, but really really grinds my gears. I love a way to banish this awful web culture, and I'd pay for a killer phrase or paragraph to make them see how pointless their behaviour is and seek to improve their responses.
some people are lazy and ask without even thinking..people wanting their homework etc done.. regardless of the forums,
most people are more willing to help if you look as if you attempted it OR it's obvious your stuck.
some people need to see some sort of code in context. isn't there any examples online , of such functions etc ?
it's all interpretation of an answer.. some people keep it short n sweet, and in turn that hasn't got any form of feeling / emotion etc.
there is point scoring going on forums, much like certain editors on wiki etc.. think the comic book guy in the simpsons, in a way and there are folk of different abilities / knowledge on forums.
there is a certain forum I go on, and people bait a certain user because he has a right hissy fit about the smallest of things.
Mind you, a lot of people who ask questions on those types of forums are clueless morons who don't even understand exactly what it is they're asking. So forcing people to provide absolute, concrete, source code examples is a handy way of cutting through potential confusion and bullsh*t and arriving at a potential solution quickly. So I can understand that as a knee-jerk response to a question.
If you don't like how they work, then I would say don't use those forums - because, none of those hubric geeky forum posters are going to miraculously acquire social skills and change their ways any time soon. Like it or lump it other words. :p
Just ask the question already! (no need to hold your hand up, you Clueless Moron* ;-P )
*sayeth Clueless Moron #2.
The guy wanted someone to do his homework for him.. .happens a lot, and when you are on a forum to give advice, it starts to be the first thing you expect... someone hasn't used google, can't be arsed to do any work themselves, and then expects an answer.
By posting code, it puts what you are trying to do in better context. Some people don't describe their problem very well, and most of us will skim read the problem & then look at the code for anything obvious as a problem. It also shows that you have tried & got stuck rather than expecting someone to do the work for you.
Most of the experts on these forums do it for a living - for every hour I spend helping someone that has genuinely tried & failed to find a solution is another hour I don't get paid. If I am going to give that time (and it's expensive time) for free, I want to know that effort has been put in first.
Yes, you might get 'why did you do it that way, do it this way' replies - but these are the experts you have approached - meaning they have been there & done that, so they might well have a better way of doing it.
Finally, if you put two programmers in a room & ask them the best way to work out 1+1 they will never agree on the best way to do it - programmers have their own approaches - and over time, their own code libraries.
I wrote a guide on one forum (for a microphone of all things) because I got fed up with people saying a product didn't work.. yet they didn't own it OR they didn't know how to set it up.
Where's your code?
Back in my VFP days Halogram and Universal Thread were great, very friendly and helpful.
Just seems to me that VB'ers are a bit skunky and C#'ers have a superiority complex.
In my experience you have to post your code to illustrate your problem. Sometimes producing this code provides the answer. As you get to be known on particular forums this diminishes.
Did I discover the answer? Not yet, but I'm working on it.
Glad I only do php these days:D
They are on programming forums, Linux forums, electronics forums.
You come to these forums with a simple question as you're trying to learn something and you only get a lot of mocking, impossible to understand techtalk and "use Google" answers.
Come on people, if I'm a total newbie then googling may not help me at all. I may not know proper words to use and the things I google up always assume some prior knowledge. If I don't have that knowledge then I won't understand it.
And they often go babbling about their favourite subject. I remember searching info once about writing beatemup games and the logic involved. I found a topic where a guy says that he'd like to make a beatemup in Visual Basic and he need help. Guess the answers:
- the first guy said that writing beatemup games is just like writing any other game so just general programming knowledge is enough :)
- the second guy said that visual Basic is crap and he should do it in C++ instead :)
Then they started flaming about C++ and pointers for several pages :)
In the end the asker didn't get any help. What's more I pretty sure that the answering guys have never ever written a beatemup, yet they had a plenty to say about it :D
More often than not that's because the people responding have an idea about the overall problem you're trying to solve and the impression that you're going down the wrong path. It's all too common for developers of any skill level to become 'problem blind' and focus on trying to solve a problem they've essentially created for themselves (and that may even be unsolvable) when sitting back and taking a broader view of the whole problem can yield a better approach that avoids the pitfalls they're running up against.
I'd say you did two things wrong:
1) you provided a lot of unnecessary detail, you really didn't need to mention anything in the first paragraph at all. Providing detail is good, but it needs to be the right details or you just cloud the problem. All you really needed was the basic "How do I position a shape object within a jpanel" question, mention that you've tried looking in the docs and possibly a line or two of code to show how you're putting the shape in the panel because that maybe makes a difference.
2) You committed the cardinal sin of saying "Don't tell me X, Y or Z." People are voluntarily providing you with help free of charge, telling them how to go about doing so is just going to get people's backs up and some people who might well have given the answer straight off will just ignore you. To some extent you just have to accept the responses you get and live with it, or don't ask - such is the price of free support.
That's why PSJ is so friendly.
AND YOUR POINT IS?
:-P
I agreed with Andy's reply and similar replies. Wondering if the op's view has changed after reading these replies. :-)
No need to go elsewhere to be insulted of course!
Ha ha very good!
2. There could possibly be a comma after "forum".
3. That sentence should end with a full-stop, not an ellipsis.
:p :D
What happens is that all the real experts get fed up of wasting their time for people who don't try. Then get attacked by the "you should be nice to morons" brigade :)
Before you know it, anyone who knows anything has left and the forum is full of people who have questions but no answers, and the people who just regurgitate what the old experts said without understanding it. (i.e. they just say "read the FAQ!" to every question while congratulating themselves on being so clever because that's what they perceived the real experts did. Of course the real experts only posted that when the question was frequently asked, and they picked up and helped the people with unusual problems who asked nicely)
That's my theory on why technical help forums become stagnant and devoid of helpfulness anyway :)
Apparently they are not though it they are responding anyway. Generally when you tire of something it's better to ignore it...be selective about what questions you answer etc.
theres always juan :)
(finder of missing/bad cover scans hehe)
scottie if you get a bit thick skinned about it and discount answers you don't like you might find one you do. try yahoo answers also , you never know.
If I give an answer and its a quick thing (e.g. THX wanted to know about open office the other day) .. I'll just give the answer, thats all that's needed no 15 paragraph answer.
if you want someone to learn so their remember it.. then you make em work for it a bit.
Like I say, you get the folk who want everyone to think they're clever by answering every question with "read the manual morans!" :-o
Fact is, a lot of problems come from being unable to make any sense of 'Help', 'FAQ' and 'Wiki' files because they're stuffed with the same ambiguous and impenetrable terminology as the language itself. But if you're asking someone who does understand it (when you don't) you have to bear in mind that your question might not make any more sense to them than the 'help' file does to you.
In which case you not willing to rephrase the question (or provide examples) is about as helpful as them telling you to re-read the documentation.
- IONIAN-GAMES.com -
http://retrosoundcards.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/rtfm.jpg
it's on at least 1 terratec sound card :)
I used to call them "ski" cards as they had pics of them on their site skiing while my friends were waiting for new drivers
Nope, because you should never start a sentence with the word "and".
(Yay! Double pedant points!)
:p