Anyway, I've never said that vector graphics aren't possible on the NES. Indeed I've been aware of the port of Elite to it for twenty years. Rather, it's that - without a raster display - it's incredibly difficult to create such games to it as they've got to be translated into tile-maps on the fly. As such, we really shouldn't underestimate the programming achievement in porting Elite to the NES, even if it's essentially more or less the same as any other 8-bit version.
We are not talking about, that is a vector graphics possible on the NES or not.
This is the best version of 8bit Elite ever, not "more or less the same".
Only Archimedes version is better overall, but that's another class of computer (risc machine with 32bit cpu).
Not bad for a good old 6502 at 1.7 Mhz
Only a few posts ago you were very explicit:
That's all really handy for scrolling platformers, but not really much else
So, obviously its quite handy for some other than scrolling platformers, isnt it. ;)
the Spectrum had fantastic games, and IS a British cultural icon.
But there is no denying that the C64 was, in many ways, a superior machine.
Swings and roundabouts, they had different strengths and weaknesses. Those support chips were nice, but the Spectrum typically had twice the power.
I prefer the C64 for sound, but think the Spectrum has better graphics and has the CPU to make it just a little more flexible in the types of game it can produce in the right hands.
We are not talking about, that is a vector graphics possible on the NES or not.
This is the best version of 8bit Elite ever, not "more or less the same".
Only Archimedes version is better overall, but that's another class of computer (risc machine with 32bit cpu).
Not bad for a good old 6502 at 1.7 Mhz
I just love the way people trot out opinions like they're facts. If it's your favourite that's fine by me, but I prefer the BBC Master version myself, and there's room for all tastes.
Anyway, I don't think the Spectrum version is that great, but it's hardly the bleeding edge of what was done with vector graphics on the machine. Rather, I'd look to the likes of Carrier Command, Micronaut One and Starstrike II for the best it could do. I wonder how any of them would fare on the NES?
Actually, putting my quote back into context, I said:
Rather, it's just that the hardware has only a very limited set of tricks over the Spectrum's. They're essentially sprites, hardware scrolling and a tile-mapped background layer. That's all really handy for scrolling platformers, but not really much else.
Eh... what about that quote even implies that I was saying what you think I was? Or are those features somehow a boon to makers of vector graphics games in ways I'd never envisaged.
Anyway, I think it's clear that the NES had a serious advantage over other 8-bits when it comes to the scrolling platformers (Mario, Metroid, Megaman, Castlevania, etc.) but I don't think it's got that much else to boast about. Plenty of good games for sure, but nothing much that couldn't have been done on the other popular 8-bits.
But there is no denying that the C64 was, in many ways, a superior machine.
Better sound and a better keyboard (albeit inferior to the later Sinclair/Amstrad models) do not make for an overall better machine. Less processing power, inferior BASIC interpreter which meant less control choice by the end user, dedicated peripherals (the infamous Datassette), lo-res graphics with washed out colors were its major drawbacks in my opinion. As a game console had some advantages but only with those games which were expressely written for it (many Epyx games for instance).
I'd think the best way to judge would be to consider best of genre games on both sides as they're more likely to exploit the capabilities of the two machines to the full. On that score, I'd think you'd have to agree that the Spectrum holds up a lot better.
I'd have to agree? Are you insane?
Are there better shoot em ups on the Spectrum? (NES - Lifeforce, Contra)
Better classic arcade game conversions? (NES - Popeye, Donkey Kong Classics, Burgertime)
Arcade Games (NES Bionic Commando, Double Dragon 2, Ikari Warriors)
Better sports "sims" (NES Blades Of Steel,
Better arcade adventures? (NES - Castlevania 3, Legend Of Zelda)
RPGs (NES - Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy)
Driving Games (Rad Racer, Micro Machines)
Sorry, there is a qualitative difference between NES games and Spectrum games. The NES is a much better games machine; however much I love the old Spectrum Games, they are not as good as the best of the NES
Probably you forgot that the NES was a game console and the Spectrum a home computer.
You just can't compare a dedicated games machine to a machine which is supposed to let you do many other things other than play games.
That is like comparing the proverbial apples and oranges.
oh come on! Now you are going to say we all did our homework on the Speccy!
I KNOW you could programme a Spectrum.
But like millions of other school kids, I played games on it. And when a better games machine came along - the NES - I saved up and got that. Then a megadrive, then a .....
If we were to have a competition as to what is the best machine for doing homework, or learning how to programme, then the Spectrum would beat the NES (and the BBC would be better than the Spectrum)
My point was about games. It's just bizarre to think that the Spectrum had better games of any particular genre (apart from text adventures!)
oh come on! Now you are going to say we all did our homework on the Speccy!
I KNOW you could programme a Spectrum.
But like millions of other school kids, I played games on it. And when a better games machine came along - the NES - I saved up and got that. Then a megadrive, then a .....
I am not saying that, weezam - what I want to underline is that the two machines were conceived and built with different purposes.
The NES was an entertainment machine, and like all entertainment products it was designed to let you be entertained, namely by playing games - and that's all. Perfectly fine if you ask me.
The Spectrum was, on the other hand, conceived and built to give the masses an affordable way of entering the fledgling digital revolution. Thereafter it was also used as a gaming platform, along other purposes. But it was never designed as a gaming machine from the start. Ask Uncle Clive about that... :roll:
Several talented programmers managed to create superb games notwithstanding its limits. Great :) But we simply can't compare a home computer to a game console just because you can play games on both of them. That would be the same as comparing a F1 car and a city car because you can drive them both. It's the philosophy at the base of them that is completely different.
Anyway, for the third time, I'll point out that except for games where hardware sprites, scrolling and tile maps are a boon - and I'm willing to take examples here that aren't scrolling platformers if anyone's got any - the NES doesn't really have anything much to offer over the Spectrum in terms of graphical capabilities.
I wouldn't limit it to scrolling platformers myself, the hardware (much like the C64) is well suited to all manner of 2D scrolling titles whether they be shooters, platformers or beat 'em ups. Inevitably the NES tends to come off looking better than the Spectrum at pretty much anything along those lines.
Now the Speccy probably had the edge for 3D (Did the NES ever see a Freescape title?) but, let's face it, 99% of 8 bit games fell squarely in the 2D scrolling bucket and thus naturally favoured the NES.
Longer games doesnt always mean better.
Better music than beeper is not a big success, SID is still far superior, especially with those great C64 musicians led by Rob Hubbard.
Additional graphics?
Higher resolution?
More colours?
Hardware sprites?
No color clash, maybe?
Which 128k games utilised this?
To me, best Spectrum games are 16/48K ones with good old beeper, creates a stronger nostalgia than any C64. :)
Usually longer games, if well programmed, mean better.
Better music than beeper means better quality in the program, there are excellents AY melodies out there for the speccy.
Aditional graphics: Some of the later Spectrum games had intros, or cutscenes or 128k versions with bigger and more graphics than the 48k versions...
To me, best Spectrum games are those from 89-91, which pushed the machine to its limits.
No, and I'd appreciate a more civilized discussion. I believe this forum has some sort of rule against repeated personal insults too.
Are there better shoot em ups on the Spectrum? (NES - Lifeforce, Contra)
Contra, in case you've not noticed, is a scrolling platformer. You can try and squeeze it into another genre if you must but that doesn't change the fact that it's precisely the sort of game that plays to the strengths of the NES hardware.
Still, so far as other shooters go, the likes of Cybernoid, Jet Pac, Zynaps and Light Force aren't half bad. They at least demonstrate that the Spectrum can technically do the genre rather well even if you don't like them.
Better classic arcade game conversions? (NES - Popeye, Donkey Kong Classics, Burgertime)
That's not what I'd call a genre in itself, but the Spectrum did get some very good ports in Moon Cresta, Commando, R-Type, Bomb Jack, etc. Again, so long as they don't involve scrolling platforms, I don't see what the NES offers in hardware terms that would preclude any of those games you mention being done well on the Spectrum. Indeed, so far as Popeye goes, I'd say that the Spectrum version is excellent and far more visually impressive than the NES game on account of the huge sprites and great use of colour.
On the whole, I'm not a huge fan of arcade conversions on the Spectrum, largely because the programmers tended to get too bogged down in making them look right rather than play well. Original games in the same genres tend to play a lot better, although there are exceptions.
Arcade Games (NES Bionic Commando, Double Dragon 2, Ikari Warriors)
Again, that's a bit of a mish-mash of genres and I see that you've got yet more scrolling platformers in there; this is getting a bit like a scratched record. And what's wrong with the Spectrum version of Ikari Warriors while we're at it?
Better sports "sims" (NES Blades Of Steel,
Yes. Match Point, Leaderboard Golf (although the C64 and CPC versions look a lot nicer), Match Day, Hypersports, Steve Davis Snooker, 180, Grand National, etc.
I'll grant that the NES has better ice hockey games but that's largely down to a lack of people programming them on the Spectrum more than anything I can think of in regards to the hardware. Again, I can't see anything technical being a barrier to them.
Better arcade adventures? (NES - Castlevania 3, Legend Of Zelda)
Yet another scrolling platformer in there, I see. Still, I'd think that the Spectrum also has a strong hand in arcade adventures. From the early Ultimate efforts like Atic Atac and Knight Lore, to the likes of Starquake, Head Over Heels, Where Time Stood Still, Enigma Force, Frankie, The Wally Week Games, Dizzy, Magic Knight, Myth, etc. there are plenty of great ones around depending on what floats your boat.
And again, I'm still waiting for you to tell me what features of the NES hardware are necessary for a game like Zelda that aren't present in some equivalent form on the Spectrum.
RPGs (NES - Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy)
On the whole I'd call it a draw. The NES has some great Japanese RPGs, but the Spectrum has some fabulous Western ones in the likes of Heroquest, Heavy on the Magick, and Bloodwych. You can also play good versions of Times of Lore or The Bard's Tale on either.
Driving Games (Rad Racer, Micro Machines)
Yes, again, but I'm a sim racer fan so I'll take the likes of Chequered Flag and TT Racer over any 8-bit arcade racer.
Still, there are plenty of decent Micro Machines-style games on the Spectrum though, so I'm not sure why you're saying the NES is dramatically better. Lack of colour clash, perhaps?
Sorry, there is a qualitative difference between NES games and Spectrum games. The NES is a much better games machine; however much I love the old Spectrum Games, they are not as good as the best of the NES
Sorry, but this is all your personal opinion. I've played thousands of Spectrum games an hundreds of NES ones and, on balance, I prefer the Spectrum ones. There are exceptions, with the most notable being the aforementioned scrolling platformersm and that's not to say that the NES doesn't have a fantastic games catalogue in its own right.
However, I'd think that there's comparatively little it can do that the Spectrum can't and that the quality of the games you mention has far more to do with the talent of the game designers, programmers and graphics artists than anything much to do with the machine's hardware. In all these lists of games you keep churning out, you're not really addressing this point at all.
Are you trying to say that the Best spectrum games are better than the worst NES games? Is that some sort of trophy?
No, but that's the sort of comparison that you'll inevitably get if you compare the same games on different formats which is what you suggested. I was only point out how absurd it can be and how it generally cuts both ways.
Aw come on, don't be so acid :-P The NES is a sports car - fine as long as you drive it on a racing circuit but able to do little or nothing else. The Spectrum is a solid, few-frills-but-easy-to-drive general purpose car - which does not mean you cannot get any pleasure from driving it. It could be a quite satysfying experience actually :)
Aw come on, don't be so acid :-P The NES is a sports car - fine as long as you drive it on a racing circuit but able to do little or nothing else. The Spectrum is a solid, few-frills-but-easy-to-drive general purpose car - which does not mean you cannot get any pleasure from driving it. It could be a quite satysfying experience actually :)
Actually I was looking at he "home computer to a game console " quote and thinking PS3 to a Spectrum.
But... I can spend all day on a PC but only an hour or so on a PS3.
Why? On the PS3 you can play games, on my PC I can be creative and write programs, get it to do what I want it to do and not follow the pre-designed path of a game.
I wouldn't limit it to scrolling platformers myself, the hardware (much like the C64) is well suited to all manner of 2D scrolling titles whether they be shooters, platformers or beat 'em ups. Inevitably the NES tends to come off looking better than the Spectrum at pretty much anything along those lines.
That's true, although I think that with a bit of imaginative programming the Spectrum can go a long way to covering up its deficiencies with software scrolling for most genres. Certainly, many people would naively look at the likes of Cobra, Zynaps and Light Force and conclude that the Spectrum actually does support some form of hardware scrolling.
However, I don't think anyone ever managed to pull off something like Super Mario, or indeed anything resembling the literally dozens of signature NES platformers. There are some creditable efforts, but everything's either got vast swathes of monochrome, colour clash, movement in exact character squares or some combination thereof; and the frame rate usually isn't up to scratch either.
Now the Speccy probably had the edge for 3D (Did the NES ever see a Freescape title?) but, let's face it, 99% of 8 bit games fell squarely in the 2D scrolling bucket and thus naturally favoured the NES.
I'd think that most 8-bit games would be 2D ones that don't scroll. Mind you, given that pretty much any machine could pull those off with aplomb discussions invariably tend to focus on the ones that aren't.
So, whilst 3D games might have been a minority interest as a whole, you'd be a lot better served with a Spectrum than anything else if that was what you liked. There are over 200 isometric and over 100 vector graphics games in the archive and a high proportion of them are worth a look.
Meanwhile, I'd expect that the NES has a much higher proportion of 2D scrollers than most 8-bits, although I'm not sure there'd be over 300 of them in PAL country.
you wrote a lot of words. In the end, every Spectrum game you mentioned is far inferior to the NES equivalent. No matter what rose tinted spectacles you wear.
I have to admit i hate these speccy vs c64 vs my hamster vs my uncles pet snake
It does my head in
The way i think of the older machines is this.
There are games i like on every machine be it computer or console it really don't matter and if someone don't like what i like then that's OK they are different to me. The Computer & console wars were just stupid because every machine have pros and cons no matter what make it is.
they have great games and some not so great and it really dont matter what was the best to me as long as i enjoy them thats the main
The Spectrum was, on the other hand, conceived and built to give the masses an affordable way of entering the fledgling digital revolution. Thereafter it was also used as a gaming platform, along other purposes. But it was never designed as a gaming machine from the start. Ask Uncle Clive about that... :roll:
thereafter? You mean as soon as it hit the shops?
However, I do agree, the Spectrum was obviously not designed in the first instance as games machine (if it was, why would it be deliberately handicapped?). So what you are saying is self-evident.
That the Spectrum had more than its "fair share" of excellent games is a real testament to the imagination of the programmers of the day that overcome the hardware limitations.
I'd think that most 8-bit games would be 2D ones that don't scroll. Mind you, given that pretty much any machine could pull those off with aplomb discussions invariably tend to focus on the ones that aren't.
I'm not sure that's true, especially if you rule out the ones which probably would've scrolled if the hardware was more suited to it - most flip screen games like the Dizzy series, for example.
you wrote a lot of words. In the end, every Spectrum game you mentioned is far inferior to the NES equivalent. No matter what rose tinted spectacles you wear.
What, pray tell, then are the NES equivalents of Starstrike II, Carrier Command and Micronaut One then? Enquiring minds would like to know.
You know what, this whole "my toy computer is better than your toy computer" argument was amusing for a few weeks back in 1982. It got a bit stale in 1984. In 1986 it was being recycled endlessly. In 1990 it got boring. In 1992 it was outdated. In 1994 it was being forgotten. In 1996 it was a fading memory. In 1998 no one cared any more. In 2000 it was dead. In 2002 it was a rotting corpse. In 2004 it was dust. In 2006 it was embarrassing. In 2008 it was sad. In 2010 it was pathetic. Now as we are about to enter 2012 and mark the 30th anniversary of "Hur...Hur...Commode 64...s'funny name innit...Speccy ROOLZ!" the words "flogging a dead horse" seem an incredible understatement.
Arguing over which piece of 30 year old plastic tat is better than the other. Oh dear, oh dear me.
I have to admit i hate these speccy vs c64 vs my hamster vs my uncles pet snake
It does my head in
The way i think of the older machines is this.
There are games i like on every machine be it computer or console it really don't matter and if someone don't like what i like then that's OK they are different to me. The Computer & console wars were just stupid because every machine have pros and cons no matter what make it is.
they have great games and some not so great and it really dont matter what was the best to me as long as i enjoy them thats the main
Quoted for truth. I am amazed that there is still such a hornet's nest on the subject after all these years.
I'm not sure that's true, especially if you rule out the ones which probably would've scrolled if the hardware was more suited to it - most flip screen games like the Dizzy series, for example.
I think you'd have to ask the Oliver Twins about that one. Even if it would have been hard work for the Spectrum version, Dizzy probably could have been done with scrolling on most of the computers and consoles it was ported to. Bubble Dizzy, on the other hand, scrolls even on the Spectrum so it's not like they didn't consider their options at various points in the series.
There are also quite a few NES exclusive games that are flip screen and that even includes Zelda; well, I suppose it transitions into the next screen with a rapid scroll, but to all purposes it plays like a flip screen.
Mainly though, I was thinking of all the games that are just played on a single screen, and there are a heck of a lot of those.
Quoted for truth. I am amazed that there is still such a hornet's nest on the subject after all these years.
This is because some people mix facts and feelings.
About Elite, only a small quotes:
"The best way to re-experience the feel of 8-bit Elite is to run the NES (Famicon) version using an emulator."
"Though I recommend the NES over the BBC version ..."
the NES doesn't really have anything much to offer over the Spectrum in terms of graphical capabilities.
Sorry, but if we are talking about games then I have to disagree. Even one feature of the NES: hi resolution multicolor sprites puts this machine ahead of any other 8-bit machine of that era. C-64 included. NES was the only system that could measure up with "hind-end" coin-op games of that era.
ZX Spectrum was not designed by any means, to be a gaming platform. It's not its fault, and it's unbelievable how many good games were written for it, and it is nice to see that good games can run a a non-gaming hardware.
I guess it was all possible mainly due to the fact that ZX Spectrum was there in the right time, and for the right price. And also I would not underestimate the importance of the presence of Zilog Z80 CPU.... I am not sure how things would have turned up if there had been a < 1 MHz 6502....
Are there better shoot em ups on the Spectrum? (NES - Lifeforce, Contra)
Better classic arcade game conversions? (NES - Popeye, Donkey Kong Classics, Burgertime)
Arcade Games (NES Bionic Commando, Double Dragon 2, Ikari Warriors)
Better sports "sims" (NES Blades Of Steel,
Better arcade adventures? (NES - Castlevania 3, Legend Of Zelda)
RPGs (NES - Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy)
Driving Games (Rad Racer, Micro Machines)
I've played literally 1000s (well, over a 1000 at least LOL) of Spectrum games and over 600 NES games, the only problems I have with this are -
1# I honestly don't see how the NES could be considered to have better driving games than the Spectrum, sure Rad Racer is great, but outside of that, and F-1 Built to Win, I struggle to think of many worthwhile into-the-screen racers on the system at all (and have searched in the past), in my experience NES racers are really thin on the ground, and tend to have really choppy scaling in comparison to Spectrum games (which are, admittedly terribly coloured, but this at least doesn't have too detrimental effect on the illusion of speed). Spectrum has Wec Le Mans, Stunt Car Racer, Super Hang-On, Continental Circus, Enduro Racer, Turbo Esprit and Powerdrift, even Chase HQ is fairly competitive, the NES version has better graphics and sound, but the animation and scaling are way worse, there's less ground objects, and the controls feel loose and Gameplay unpolished.
Outside of that there's tons of top down racers on Spectrum, and like a billion "Simulator's" from Codemasters :lol:
2# Ikari Warriors is awful on the NES, everybody knows that, it may have waay better graphics and sound, but when it plays as badly as it does I don't think that makes too much of a difference. I would have to say that even though the presentation is leagues worse on Spectrum, the game is still superior overall (and in fact the NES version is probably one of the worst I've played, the Amstrad, 7800, Atari ST, and Amiga versions were all much better), for one thing you can't even fire one way whilst moving another in the NES version! worse still its really unresponsive, try to do a fast turn and fire on NES, because the game slowly animates you turning you end up firing halfway through the turn in the wrong direction, outside of that theres loads of flicker everywhere, and the enemy behaviour has been changed, and the difficulty curve pushed higher, making many of the enemies too aggressive and the game too hard.
3# People have already brought up Strategy games to you, which you have conveniently ignored, Spectrum has way more serious strategy games than NES.
4# Spectrum has loads more Isometric Adventure's than the NES (Batman, Knight Lore, Head Over Heels, Alien 8, Rentakill Rita, Sweevo's World, Nosferatu, Fairlight, Hydrofool, Inside Outing, Movie etc), not only that, but Head Over Heels is easily a better game than Solstice in my opinion to boot.
5# Space combat and flight sims can be pointed to as another win for the Spectrum, with loads of Star Raiders and Star Wars Arcade influenced games on the system (as well as original concepts and games which amalgamate elements from both), and the system being well suited to vector graphics.
6# Really, if you're going into minute detail of sub genre's, the Spectrum would have higher numbers of simple single screen platform games than the NES too.
Just to clear up though, I don't really agree with either side of the argument in this case, I don't agree that the NES was a one trick pony, as really, its scrolling + sprites + tiles set-up is actually fairly useful for most types of popular games from the time (perfectly fine for platformers, perfectly fine for scrolling shmups, perfectly fine for Sports games, perfectly fine for puzzle games etc) and the system itself actually has a very nice variety of genre's, and represents just about every type of game you'd want in one way or another, the graphics are also waay more consistent than Spectrum, and virtually always leagues better.
On the other hand I don't agree that it was better than the Spectrum in all ways either, both system's had their own strengths in certain genre's, had different gaming "scenes", and were better suited to different things than each other
Comments
We are not talking about, that is a vector graphics possible on the NES or not.
This is the best version of 8bit Elite ever, not "more or less the same".
Only Archimedes version is better overall, but that's another class of computer (risc machine with 32bit cpu).
Not bad for a good old 6502 at 1.7 Mhz
Only a few posts ago you were very explicit:
So, obviously its quite handy for some other than scrolling platformers, isnt it. ;)
http://zx-pk.ru/
Swings and roundabouts, they had different strengths and weaknesses. Those support chips were nice, but the Spectrum typically had twice the power.
I prefer the C64 for sound, but think the Spectrum has better graphics and has the CPU to make it just a little more flexible in the types of game it can produce in the right hands.
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I just love the way people trot out opinions like they're facts. If it's your favourite that's fine by me, but I prefer the BBC Master version myself, and there's room for all tastes.
Anyway, I don't think the Spectrum version is that great, but it's hardly the bleeding edge of what was done with vector graphics on the machine. Rather, I'd look to the likes of Carrier Command, Micronaut One and Starstrike II for the best it could do. I wonder how any of them would fare on the NES?
Actually, putting my quote back into context, I said:
Eh... what about that quote even implies that I was saying what you think I was? Or are those features somehow a boon to makers of vector graphics games in ways I'd never envisaged.
Anyway, I think it's clear that the NES had a serious advantage over other 8-bits when it comes to the scrolling platformers (Mario, Metroid, Megaman, Castlevania, etc.) but I don't think it's got that much else to boast about. Plenty of good games for sure, but nothing much that couldn't have been done on the other popular 8-bits.
I'd have to agree? Are you insane?
Are there better shoot em ups on the Spectrum? (NES - Lifeforce, Contra)
Better classic arcade game conversions? (NES - Popeye, Donkey Kong Classics, Burgertime)
Arcade Games (NES Bionic Commando, Double Dragon 2, Ikari Warriors)
Better sports "sims" (NES Blades Of Steel,
Better arcade adventures? (NES - Castlevania 3, Legend Of Zelda)
RPGs (NES - Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy)
Driving Games (Rad Racer, Micro Machines)
Sorry, there is a qualitative difference between NES games and Spectrum games. The NES is a much better games machine; however much I love the old Spectrum Games, they are not as good as the best of the NES
Sure, it's a poxy conversion; but there are isometric games on the NES that blow the Spectrum out of the water.
Are you trying to say that the Best spectrum games are better than the worst NES games? Is that some sort of trophy?
You just can't compare a dedicated games machine to a machine which is supposed to let you do many other things other than play games.
That is like comparing the proverbial apples and oranges - simply pointless.
oh come on! Now you are going to say we all did our homework on the Speccy!
I KNOW you could programme a Spectrum.
But like millions of other school kids, I played games on it. And when a better games machine came along - the NES - I saved up and got that. Then a megadrive, then a .....
If we were to have a competition as to what is the best machine for doing homework, or learning how to programme, then the Spectrum would beat the NES (and the BBC would be better than the Spectrum)
My point was about games. It's just bizarre to think that the Spectrum had better games of any particular genre (apart from text adventures!)
The NES was an entertainment machine, and like all entertainment products it was designed to let you be entertained, namely by playing games - and that's all. Perfectly fine if you ask me.
The Spectrum was, on the other hand, conceived and built to give the masses an affordable way of entering the fledgling digital revolution. Thereafter it was also used as a gaming platform, along other purposes. But it was never designed as a gaming machine from the start. Ask Uncle Clive about that... :roll:
Several talented programmers managed to create superb games notwithstanding its limits. Great :) But we simply can't compare a home computer to a game console just because you can play games on both of them. That would be the same as comparing a F1 car and a city car because you can drive them both. It's the philosophy at the base of them that is completely different.
Now the Speccy probably had the edge for 3D (Did the NES ever see a Freescape title?) but, let's face it, 99% of 8 bit games fell squarely in the 2D scrolling bucket and thus naturally favoured the NES.
Usually longer games, if well programmed, mean better.
Better music than beeper means better quality in the program, there are excellents AY melodies out there for the speccy.
Aditional graphics: Some of the later Spectrum games had intros, or cutscenes or 128k versions with bigger and more graphics than the 48k versions...
To me, best Spectrum games are those from 89-91, which pushed the machine to its limits.
No, and I'd appreciate a more civilized discussion. I believe this forum has some sort of rule against repeated personal insults too.
Contra, in case you've not noticed, is a scrolling platformer. You can try and squeeze it into another genre if you must but that doesn't change the fact that it's precisely the sort of game that plays to the strengths of the NES hardware.
Still, so far as other shooters go, the likes of Cybernoid, Jet Pac, Zynaps and Light Force aren't half bad. They at least demonstrate that the Spectrum can technically do the genre rather well even if you don't like them.
That's not what I'd call a genre in itself, but the Spectrum did get some very good ports in Moon Cresta, Commando, R-Type, Bomb Jack, etc. Again, so long as they don't involve scrolling platforms, I don't see what the NES offers in hardware terms that would preclude any of those games you mention being done well on the Spectrum. Indeed, so far as Popeye goes, I'd say that the Spectrum version is excellent and far more visually impressive than the NES game on account of the huge sprites and great use of colour.
On the whole, I'm not a huge fan of arcade conversions on the Spectrum, largely because the programmers tended to get too bogged down in making them look right rather than play well. Original games in the same genres tend to play a lot better, although there are exceptions.
Again, that's a bit of a mish-mash of genres and I see that you've got yet more scrolling platformers in there; this is getting a bit like a scratched record. And what's wrong with the Spectrum version of Ikari Warriors while we're at it?
Yes. Match Point, Leaderboard Golf (although the C64 and CPC versions look a lot nicer), Match Day, Hypersports, Steve Davis Snooker, 180, Grand National, etc.
I'll grant that the NES has better ice hockey games but that's largely down to a lack of people programming them on the Spectrum more than anything I can think of in regards to the hardware. Again, I can't see anything technical being a barrier to them.
Yet another scrolling platformer in there, I see. Still, I'd think that the Spectrum also has a strong hand in arcade adventures. From the early Ultimate efforts like Atic Atac and Knight Lore, to the likes of Starquake, Head Over Heels, Where Time Stood Still, Enigma Force, Frankie, The Wally Week Games, Dizzy, Magic Knight, Myth, etc. there are plenty of great ones around depending on what floats your boat.
And again, I'm still waiting for you to tell me what features of the NES hardware are necessary for a game like Zelda that aren't present in some equivalent form on the Spectrum.
On the whole I'd call it a draw. The NES has some great Japanese RPGs, but the Spectrum has some fabulous Western ones in the likes of Heroquest, Heavy on the Magick, and Bloodwych. You can also play good versions of Times of Lore or The Bard's Tale on either.
Yes, again, but I'm a sim racer fan so I'll take the likes of Chequered Flag and TT Racer over any 8-bit arcade racer.
Still, there are plenty of decent Micro Machines-style games on the Spectrum though, so I'm not sure why you're saying the NES is dramatically better. Lack of colour clash, perhaps?
Sorry, but this is all your personal opinion. I've played thousands of Spectrum games an hundreds of NES ones and, on balance, I prefer the Spectrum ones. There are exceptions, with the most notable being the aforementioned scrolling platformersm and that's not to say that the NES doesn't have a fantastic games catalogue in its own right.
However, I'd think that there's comparatively little it can do that the Spectrum can't and that the quality of the games you mention has far more to do with the talent of the game designers, programmers and graphics artists than anything much to do with the machine's hardware. In all these lists of games you keep churning out, you're not really addressing this point at all.
No, but that's the sort of comparison that you'll inevitably get if you compare the same games on different formats which is what you suggested. I was only point out how absurd it can be and how it generally cuts both ways.
But... I can spend all day on a PC but only an hour or so on a PS3.
Why? On the PS3 you can play games, on my PC I can be creative and write programs, get it to do what I want it to do and not follow the pre-designed path of a game.
This is truth.
That's true, although I think that with a bit of imaginative programming the Spectrum can go a long way to covering up its deficiencies with software scrolling for most genres. Certainly, many people would naively look at the likes of Cobra, Zynaps and Light Force and conclude that the Spectrum actually does support some form of hardware scrolling.
However, I don't think anyone ever managed to pull off something like Super Mario, or indeed anything resembling the literally dozens of signature NES platformers. There are some creditable efforts, but everything's either got vast swathes of monochrome, colour clash, movement in exact character squares or some combination thereof; and the frame rate usually isn't up to scratch either.
I'd think that most 8-bit games would be 2D ones that don't scroll. Mind you, given that pretty much any machine could pull those off with aplomb discussions invariably tend to focus on the ones that aren't.
So, whilst 3D games might have been a minority interest as a whole, you'd be a lot better served with a Spectrum than anything else if that was what you liked. There are over 200 isometric and over 100 vector graphics games in the archive and a high proportion of them are worth a look.
Meanwhile, I'd expect that the NES has a much higher proportion of 2D scrollers than most 8-bits, although I'm not sure there'd be over 300 of them in PAL country.
you wrote a lot of words. In the end, every Spectrum game you mentioned is far inferior to the NES equivalent. No matter what rose tinted spectacles you wear.
It does my head in
The way i think of the older machines is this.
There are games i like on every machine be it computer or console it really don't matter and if someone don't like what i like then that's OK they are different to me. The Computer & console wars were just stupid because every machine have pros and cons no matter what make it is.
they have great games and some not so great and it really dont matter what was the best to me as long as i enjoy them thats the main
thereafter? You mean as soon as it hit the shops?
However, I do agree, the Spectrum was obviously not designed in the first instance as games machine (if it was, why would it be deliberately handicapped?). So what you are saying is self-evident.
That the Spectrum had more than its "fair share" of excellent games is a real testament to the imagination of the programmers of the day that overcome the hardware limitations.
I'm not sure that's true, especially if you rule out the ones which probably would've scrolled if the hardware was more suited to it - most flip screen games like the Dizzy series, for example.
What, pray tell, then are the NES equivalents of Starstrike II, Carrier Command and Micronaut One then? Enquiring minds would like to know.
Arguing over which piece of 30 year old plastic tat is better than the other. Oh dear, oh dear me.
Quoted for truth. I am amazed that there is still such a hornet's nest on the subject after all these years.
I think you'd have to ask the Oliver Twins about that one. Even if it would have been hard work for the Spectrum version, Dizzy probably could have been done with scrolling on most of the computers and consoles it was ported to. Bubble Dizzy, on the other hand, scrolls even on the Spectrum so it's not like they didn't consider their options at various points in the series.
There are also quite a few NES exclusive games that are flip screen and that even includes Zelda; well, I suppose it transitions into the next screen with a rapid scroll, but to all purposes it plays like a flip screen.
Mainly though, I was thinking of all the games that are just played on a single screen, and there are a heck of a lot of those.
this is the truthest truth.
This is because some people mix facts and feelings.
About Elite, only a small quotes:
"The best way to re-experience the feel of 8-bit Elite is to run the NES (Famicon) version using an emulator."
"Though I recommend the NES over the BBC version ..."
Ian Bell
:)
http://zx-pk.ru/
Sorry, but if we are talking about games then I have to disagree. Even one feature of the NES: hi resolution multicolor sprites puts this machine ahead of any other 8-bit machine of that era. C-64 included. NES was the only system that could measure up with "hind-end" coin-op games of that era.
ZX Spectrum was not designed by any means, to be a gaming platform. It's not its fault, and it's unbelievable how many good games were written for it, and it is nice to see that good games can run a a non-gaming hardware.
I guess it was all possible mainly due to the fact that ZX Spectrum was there in the right time, and for the right price. And also I would not underestimate the importance of the presence of Zilog Z80 CPU.... I am not sure how things would have turned up if there had been a < 1 MHz 6502....
1# I honestly don't see how the NES could be considered to have better driving games than the Spectrum, sure Rad Racer is great, but outside of that, and F-1 Built to Win, I struggle to think of many worthwhile into-the-screen racers on the system at all (and have searched in the past), in my experience NES racers are really thin on the ground, and tend to have really choppy scaling in comparison to Spectrum games (which are, admittedly terribly coloured, but this at least doesn't have too detrimental effect on the illusion of speed). Spectrum has Wec Le Mans, Stunt Car Racer, Super Hang-On, Continental Circus, Enduro Racer, Turbo Esprit and Powerdrift, even Chase HQ is fairly competitive, the NES version has better graphics and sound, but the animation and scaling are way worse, there's less ground objects, and the controls feel loose and Gameplay unpolished.
Outside of that there's tons of top down racers on Spectrum, and like a billion "Simulator's" from Codemasters :lol:
2# Ikari Warriors is awful on the NES, everybody knows that, it may have waay better graphics and sound, but when it plays as badly as it does I don't think that makes too much of a difference. I would have to say that even though the presentation is leagues worse on Spectrum, the game is still superior overall (and in fact the NES version is probably one of the worst I've played, the Amstrad, 7800, Atari ST, and Amiga versions were all much better), for one thing you can't even fire one way whilst moving another in the NES version! worse still its really unresponsive, try to do a fast turn and fire on NES, because the game slowly animates you turning you end up firing halfway through the turn in the wrong direction, outside of that theres loads of flicker everywhere, and the enemy behaviour has been changed, and the difficulty curve pushed higher, making many of the enemies too aggressive and the game too hard.
3# People have already brought up Strategy games to you, which you have conveniently ignored, Spectrum has way more serious strategy games than NES.
4# Spectrum has loads more Isometric Adventure's than the NES (Batman, Knight Lore, Head Over Heels, Alien 8, Rentakill Rita, Sweevo's World, Nosferatu, Fairlight, Hydrofool, Inside Outing, Movie etc), not only that, but Head Over Heels is easily a better game than Solstice in my opinion to boot.
5# Space combat and flight sims can be pointed to as another win for the Spectrum, with loads of Star Raiders and Star Wars Arcade influenced games on the system (as well as original concepts and games which amalgamate elements from both), and the system being well suited to vector graphics.
6# Really, if you're going into minute detail of sub genre's, the Spectrum would have higher numbers of simple single screen platform games than the NES too.
Just to clear up though, I don't really agree with either side of the argument in this case, I don't agree that the NES was a one trick pony, as really, its scrolling + sprites + tiles set-up is actually fairly useful for most types of popular games from the time (perfectly fine for platformers, perfectly fine for scrolling shmups, perfectly fine for Sports games, perfectly fine for puzzle games etc) and the system itself actually has a very nice variety of genre's, and represents just about every type of game you'd want in one way or another, the graphics are also waay more consistent than Spectrum, and virtually always leagues better.
On the other hand I don't agree that it was better than the Spectrum in all ways either, both system's had their own strengths in certain genre's, had different gaming "scenes", and were better suited to different things than each other