I'll throw my name into the hat whilst we're at it.
Took an overdose whilst in my early 20's (was on Prozac) went on to Citalopram for most of my 20's, got on with it mainly apart from putting a fair bit of weight on. Was weaned off of it a couple of years ago as life was good (enjoying uni, supportive GF).
Broke up with the lady friend then had a massive collapse 6 or so months ago, almost gave up on life and at one point was really quite ill. Things are much better now, I've been very lucky in the support I've had (friends, uni counselling, CBT) and I've also worked very hard on improving my life as well (taking up running and losing loads of weight) and currently on Sertaline which seems to be agreeing with me without the associated weight gain.
Sorry, a bit of a life story there. Felt quite therapeutic to write!
I have to say it's an excellent store as I get all my Sodastream CO2 refils and soda syrups from there.
/insert thumbs up here.
Aye! But try going in there just to buy a pen, you'll end up leaving with shares in Sharpie, 8 cubic tons of copy paper, and a cash register for the store you don't own :D
I'll throw my name into the hat whilst we're at it.
Took an overdose whilst in my early 20's (was on Prozac) went on to Citalopram for most of my 20's, got on with it mainly apart from putting a fair bit of weight on. Was weaned off of it a couple of years ago as life was good (enjoying uni, supportive GF).
Broke up with the lady friend then had a massive collapse 6 or so months ago, almost gave up on life and at one point was really quite ill. Things are much better now, I've been very lucky in the support I've had (friends, uni counselling, CBT) and I've also worked very hard on improving my life as well (taking up running and losing loads of weight) and currently on Sertaline which seems to be agreeing with me without the associated weight gain.
Sorry, a bit of a life story there. Felt quite therapeutic to write!
fair play. the running/excercise in general part is probably something I need to get on tbh. had a 20 minute kick around with my bro the other day and was exhausted. the whole 'releasing endorphins' thing must be beneficial somehow!
My long term partner nearly split with me yesterday cause she cannot cope with my mood swings and anger issues
I snap at the slightest thing...
She is scared that I might take it out on her and my son (I do get angry with him and I know I shouldn't)
I don't know what is wrong me?, could it be what has happened in my life (Dad dying of cancer, divorce, mother having MS)
I have never spoke to any of my friends about this, and I am at rock bottom...last chance saloon shall we say
If I don't do anything now, I'm gonna lose EVERYTHING :cry:
probably having somebody to talk to weekly or so about issues, anger, anxiety, depression or whatever can be helpful to let out bad things in a safe way, being more serene and not ruin relationships.
If I don't do anything now, I'm gonna lose EVERYTHING :cry:
Sorry to hear that dude.....
Hopefully the doc will be able to help you out...all I can really say is re-read the thread and try to take comfort in the fact a lot of people have managed to get through depressed spells...
Try to take your mind off of things until tomorrow too by watching something you know is funny, or listening to happy music.....sounds daft but it can work....
Try and get counselling. Talking about things does help and it may be easier to talk to a complete stranger. Use this forum too. There are many people who have been through similar situations and can empathize with you.
I've been having weird thoughts about offing myself, I know it sounds a little weird coming from me? I'm always I'd never do myself in, I'd never take the easy way out, but over the last week or two I've been feeling spent.
I won't kill myself, and I'm not looking for attention, but this is the first time in my life I've really thought about it, where I didn't instantly think "nah?" afterwards.
I've been drinking a stupid amount recently though, more than I have in a long time. I'm pissed f*cking mortal right now.....pffft!
Yeah get help depression sometimes spirals and makes itself worse.
I feel depressed sometimes, I get anxious that I'm in my 30s and am many not maximising my potential. Odd really, because Ive done quite a lot in the last 10 years. I doesn't help that many those I'm working with at the moment are truly obsessed with more money + bigger house and car than your = I'm better. I've never been a fan of the rat race and office politics, but somehow get caught up in it so much as it affects me emotionally.
I've been getting suicidal thoughts on and off for the past few months. There has been major family problems at the moment (i won't go into the details) involving my mother and the stress has been terrible, combined with the stress of work i've been thinking it would be better if i was out of the way (permantly) and i also get bouts of lonleness (these are the reasons ive not been posting as much on here recently).
Some days i'm fine but its only a matter of time before all these issues implode and i'll be left in the middle of it to pick the pieces up, that may be the final straw:sad::sad:
i've been thinking it would be better if i was out of the way (permantly)
Living is difficult. Sometimes the urge to just give up can be incredibly strong. But if you disappeared, don't think for a minute that the hole you left in people's lives would go unnoticed.
Loneliness can be crippling, but the best defence is to learn to live with yourself. You'll make new friends when you least expect it.
Family is arbitrary. You do not have to maintain a relationship that is damaging to you just because you are related. It is wonderful to have a positive relationship with parents and siblings, but it is not always possible and this isn't a reflection on you.
Some doctors have the idea that young men aren't supposed to suffer from depression. If your GP doesn't take you seriously go to see a different doctor. There are many reasons for depression but most people will experience it at some period in their life. Conquering depression will make you a stronger person than those who have yet to go through it. But more importantly, you'll be able to offer support to friends when they need it.
Edit: Work. Tell HR. You don't have to tell your boss, but you should let HR know that you are having difficulties in performing your duties owing to external factors. Depending on the size of the organization they may even be able to give you an occupational health referral.
felt the same way a number of years ago after my relationship fell apart with my fiancee, got help through work they organised an appointment with my doctor when I broke down at work and with occupational health helped greatly as I became quite an agressive individual and would be spoiling for a fight if it came my way (previously I'd always walked away from trouble if it came my way)
if the situation is too much for you then walk away, why should you have to suffer for the sake of others or at least let them know what an adverse effect it is having on your mental well being and how you're feeling
things alway look worse at the start because you can't see where things are going to go, for me once I took control and worked throught the pain (refused medication because a) I didn't want to become dependant b) I felt it would only mask the feelings which would emerge once I was off any medication) I start to think about where I wanted to be and enjoying my life again
10 years on and I'm married with a loving wife 3 wonderful children (twins and a step daughter), I managed to progress well at work, although now I'm a house husband supporting my wife's career path by looking after the house and family so she can concentrate on her work and have a good family life
still have moments when I feel a little down but once I take stock of what I do have (always try to look for the positive in any situation) it soon goes away
Living is difficult. Sometimes the urge to just give up can be incredibly strong. But if you disappeared, don't think for a minute that the hole you left in people's lives would go unnoticed.
Loneliness can be crippling, but the best defence is to learn to live with yourself. You'll make new friends when you least expect it.
Family is arbitrary. You do not have to maintain a relationship that is damaging to you just because you are related. It is wonderful to have a positive relationship with parents and siblings, but it is not always possible and this isn't a reflection on you.
Some doctors have the idea that young men aren't supposed to suffer from depression. If your GP doesn't take you seriously go to see a different doctor. There are many reasons for depression but most people will experience it at some period in their life. Conquering depression will make you a stronger person than those who have yet to go through it. But more importantly, you'll be able to offer support to friends when they need it.
Edit: Work. Tell HR. You don't have to tell your boss, but you should let HR know that you are having difficulties in performing your duties owing to external factors. Depending on the size of the organization they may even be able to give you an occupational health referral.
Family is arbitrary. You do not have to maintain a relationship that is damaging to you just because you are related.
Best thing I've read in days. Some people in some families just cause trouble when they're around, and if you dare tell them the truth or try to stay away (or if you don't do what they expect you to do) they will play the blame game...
The only negative thoughts I have once in a while are the sadness for being away from my family and my country and knowing that it's best for my wife and kids if I stay here. Moving back to Portugal wouldn't be a smart move, so I've decided to stay here and put their well being ahead of my own will. Reminding myself of my responsibility regarding those who I love, those who need me to be there for them, that's what makes me strong.
Get the doc to write you a prescription....counseling is fine and dandy but it's a long term solution....you need a short term solution if you want to hold your family together...
Not sure what the latest meds are but prosac or something will short term fix you up...then you can seek out the long term counseling solution.
Pill popping isn't the ideal solution but if it's that or losing your family it's worth it (short term)
Well, anti-depressants really aren't short term either. They generally take 6-8 weeks for them to start 'working' and then starts the process of trying to get better. Since anti-depressants work differently for different people there's also the fact that you may have to change if others don't work and if they do then the dosage may have to be altered. Anti-depressants aren't happy pills. If they were, everybody would be on them.
My GP always recommended that 6 months was the earliest they would review my meds - coming off them or changing, etc.
Counselling can be a mixed bag. I've been to 2 lots of sessions for counselling - 1 lot I paid for myself, the 2nd time covered by work through OH - and although I felt they helped at the time the long term benefits have escaped me. I am now seeing the NHS Psychologist (waiting list was about 6 months) and felt that my 1st couple of sessions were infinitely more beneficial to me than those 2 lots of counselling. The psychologist is really getting to the root of my issues whereas I felt the counselling I had previously was almost superficial. That's my experiences anyway. Small steps, though, as you do not want to overwhelm yourself and that means going to see you doctor first.
Well, anti-depressants really aren't short term either. They generally take 6-8 weeks for them to start 'working'
Dunno about that, I know someone on "head meds" and they have a pretty much instant kick in...you can tell when they take them the difference is night and day in just a few hours. As you say it's different for everyone I suppose and dependent on which meds you are actually on.
With SSRIs at least they have an effect immediately almost certainly not the effects you actually want! you can take a few weeks for things to stabilise and for the first week on a new drug you'll probably feel like utter crap.
The 6 to 8 weeks thing is pretty standard in the UK. I've been on 3 types of anti-depressant and never had anything near instant effects. Nobody I know or have spoken (or even read, for that matter - i did a lot of reading into depression when i first felt like this just to understand it better) to have had anything like an instant fix, I'm afraid. BUT, GP's over here tend to start dosage low enough where you will never have the instant feeling of feeling better because that can limit your options on those meds if you need to go higher. Also, there's an element of psychology there, too, when you start on them that things will get better now that you are on them.
In the 1st couple of weeks when starting anti-depressants there can usually be some side-effects before you even start feeling anything remotely aces. I say 'usually' but again it effects different people in different ways. Take citalopram, for example. This was the first anti-depressant I was put on and it helped for a bit before it seemed to stop. In the 1st 2 weeks taking this, I had increased anxiety, some sickness and diarrhoea for a day or two, increased sweating..all common initial side-effects for citalopram and it's one of the least invasive. I know a few people who are on it who have experienced these when starting to take them. Coming off citalopram i had 2 endure the 'brain zaps' which i can only describe as getting a head rush when standing up too quick but faster and just when doing 'normal' things. Mirtazapine - the ones I'm on now - I had to endure binge eating and incredible drowsiness when I started taking them.
With SSRIs at least they have an effect immediately almost certainly not the effects you actually want! you can take a few weeks for things to stabilise and for the first week on a new drug you'll probably feel like utter crap.
Yip exactly. I've never felt anything like hi-5ing everybody I meet on the 1st few weeks on any anti-depressant. You'd think that going on them would prevent suicides too where it can be the opposite in some cases. On taking them it eventually gives people more energy to actually do something about killing themselves whereas before they just didn't have that energy. Of course, that's the extreme cases. This was one of the main side-effects of the 2nd meds I tried - venlafaxine. It was one of the stronger ones!
I've never felt anything like hi-5ing everybody I meet on the 1st few weeks on any anti-depressant.
I've never felt like hi-five-ing anyone full stop :p
It should be noted that even when anti depressants work they still might not help in the ways you wanted.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread I was on citalopram for a while and it did a very good job of removing depression... Along with any other emotions or sense or purpose. "My life is crumbling around me and I'm about to be eaten by a hungry bear... That's ok, I'm just going to have a nap now"
And for some people, being on anti-depressants means lo-5ing is out the question also....
Yeah I found that with citalopram, too. I just felt like a robot. Considering that I had felt I could've been replaced by a robot before my depression took hold I think these days that that had to be some sort of cruel joke!
I feel i'm qualified in these matters, being a recovered manic depressive.
The drugs don't work. They prolong the process of recovery.
Forget about all this chemical balance bull**** that you might be told. And know that your body allways produces the chemicals it needs.
I've had brain scans that showed areas of my brain that were constantly active, that are not normally active. And I was told all sorts of bull**** about this is because of a lack of this or too much of that, and was prescribed pills to 'counter' this.
The ONLY thing that works as a remedy, is to throw away the pills and eat a varied diet. Eat as much different nutrition as possible. Your physiology balances itself, it will only produce too much of something if it doesn't have all the ingredients to make what it needs, it doesn't care about mental state factors. So the only answer is to intake as much different nutrients as possible, so the body can use what it needs to balance itself.
There's a very good nutrient that kickstarted the recovery for me. Its called colloidal silver. I drank one pint of it once (that I made myself, and I've written guides for), and thought what another waste of time and went back to my daily routine. Over the next week I noticed some changes in my appearance, like the whites of my eyes were pure white instead of yellow. But one day about two weeks later, I woke up with no more back or neck pain. Back and neck pain are a side effect of the 'chemical imbalance' in the spinal fluid. All you need to make your own colloidal silver are 2x 99.999% pure silver rods, a 9v battery, 150 Ohm resistor, coffee filter, a 50mA LES bulb and BP purified water bought from the chemist.
The worst thing is to go down the route of psychiatry and anti-depressants. I know, they nearly made me end it all...
I did a google search for "colloidal silver" and it brought up lots of esoteric and conspiracist sites claiming it was a miracle cure (including for AIDS in one instance) and that the "mainstream media" were suppressing it. Wikipedia describes it as "alternative medicine". To use an old sceptics' phrase, there's no such thing as alternative medicine; there's medicine which has been proved to work and "medicine" which has no scientific basis beyond possible placebo effect.
Normally I'd leave this stuff but there are people posting here with real problems and I don't want them to go down the "alternative" route. Anti-depressants didn't work for Frank, they do and will for many people. Psychiatry is an inexact science but it is no conspiracy, nor are the medicines they provide part of some kind of cover-up of a non-existent miracle cure.
People should talk to their GP, take their advice, try the medicine. If it doesn't work then report it to the GP who will probably take you off it. Exercise and (yes) things like dietary changes may well help some people, but it can't be stressed enough that people should take advice from their GPs first and foremost.
The 6 to 8 weeks thing is pretty standard in the UK. I've been on 3 types of anti-depressant and never had anything near instant effects. Nobody I know or have spoken (or even read, for that matter - i did a lot of reading into depression when i first felt like this just to understand it better) to have had anything like an instant fix, I'm afraid. BUT, GP's over here tend to start dosage low enough where you will never have the instant feeling of feeling better because that can limit your options on those meds if you need to go higher. Also, there's an element of psychology there, too, when you start on them that things will get better now that you are on them.
In the 1st couple of weeks when starting anti-depressants there can usually be some side-effects before you even start feeling anything remotely aces. I say 'usually' but again it effects different people in different ways. Take citalopram, for example. This was the first anti-depressant I was put on and it helped for a bit before it seemed to stop. In the 1st 2 weeks taking this, I had increased anxiety, some sickness and diarrhoea for a day or two, increased sweating..all common initial side-effects for citalopram and it's one of the least invasive. I know a few people who are on it who have experienced these when starting to take them. Coming off citalopram i had 2 endure the 'brain zaps' which i can only describe as getting a head rush when standing up too quick but faster and just when doing 'normal' things. Mirtazapine - the ones I'm on now - I had to endure binge eating and incredible drowsiness when I started taking them.
Sympathies with the brain zaps.Every time you turn your head you think you're going to have a stroke. Utterly horrible.
Comments
Took an overdose whilst in my early 20's (was on Prozac) went on to Citalopram for most of my 20's, got on with it mainly apart from putting a fair bit of weight on. Was weaned off of it a couple of years ago as life was good (enjoying uni, supportive GF).
Broke up with the lady friend then had a massive collapse 6 or so months ago, almost gave up on life and at one point was really quite ill. Things are much better now, I've been very lucky in the support I've had (friends, uni counselling, CBT) and I've also worked very hard on improving my life as well (taking up running and losing loads of weight) and currently on Sertaline which seems to be agreeing with me without the associated weight gain.
Sorry, a bit of a life story there. Felt quite therapeutic to write!
I have to say it's an excellent store as I get all my Sodastream CO2 refils and soda syrups from there.
/insert thumbs up here.
Aye! But try going in there just to buy a pen, you'll end up leaving with shares in Sharpie, 8 cubic tons of copy paper, and a cash register for the store you don't own :D
fair play. the running/excercise in general part is probably something I need to get on tbh. had a 20 minute kick around with my bro the other day and was exhausted. the whole 'releasing endorphins' thing must be beneficial somehow!
Going to docs tomorrow to see him again :(
My long term partner nearly split with me yesterday cause she cannot cope with my mood swings and anger issues
I snap at the slightest thing...
She is scared that I might take it out on her and my son (I do get angry with him and I know I shouldn't)
I don't know what is wrong me?, could it be what has happened in my life (Dad dying of cancer, divorce, mother having MS)
I have never spoke to any of my friends about this, and I am at rock bottom...last chance saloon shall we say
If I don't do anything now, I'm gonna lose EVERYTHING :cry:
probably having somebody to talk to weekly or so about issues, anger, anxiety, depression or whatever can be helpful to let out bad things in a safe way, being more serene and not ruin relationships.
Sorry to hear that dude.....
Hopefully the doc will be able to help you out...all I can really say is re-read the thread and try to take comfort in the fact a lot of people have managed to get through depressed spells...
Try to take your mind off of things until tomorrow too by watching something you know is funny, or listening to happy music.....sounds daft but it can work....
Hope you feel better soon tho, man!
I'd been thinking about it a day or two ago.
I've been having weird thoughts about offing myself, I know it sounds a little weird coming from me? I'm always I'd never do myself in, I'd never take the easy way out, but over the last week or two I've been feeling spent.
I won't kill myself, and I'm not looking for attention, but this is the first time in my life I've really thought about it, where I didn't instantly think "nah?" afterwards.
I've been drinking a stupid amount recently though, more than I have in a long time. I'm pissed f*cking mortal right now.....pffft!
I feel depressed sometimes, I get anxious that I'm in my 30s and am many not maximising my potential. Odd really, because Ive done quite a lot in the last 10 years. I doesn't help that many those I'm working with at the moment are truly obsessed with more money + bigger house and car than your = I'm better. I've never been a fan of the rat race and office politics, but somehow get caught up in it so much as it affects me emotionally.
Some days i'm fine but its only a matter of time before all these issues implode and i'll be left in the middle of it to pick the pieces up, that may be the final straw:sad::sad:
Living is difficult. Sometimes the urge to just give up can be incredibly strong. But if you disappeared, don't think for a minute that the hole you left in people's lives would go unnoticed.
Loneliness can be crippling, but the best defence is to learn to live with yourself. You'll make new friends when you least expect it.
Family is arbitrary. You do not have to maintain a relationship that is damaging to you just because you are related. It is wonderful to have a positive relationship with parents and siblings, but it is not always possible and this isn't a reflection on you.
Some doctors have the idea that young men aren't supposed to suffer from depression. If your GP doesn't take you seriously go to see a different doctor. There are many reasons for depression but most people will experience it at some period in their life. Conquering depression will make you a stronger person than those who have yet to go through it. But more importantly, you'll be able to offer support to friends when they need it.
Edit: Work. Tell HR. You don't have to tell your boss, but you should let HR know that you are having difficulties in performing your duties owing to external factors. Depending on the size of the organization they may even be able to give you an occupational health referral.
if the situation is too much for you then walk away, why should you have to suffer for the sake of others or at least let them know what an adverse effect it is having on your mental well being and how you're feeling
things alway look worse at the start because you can't see where things are going to go, for me once I took control and worked throught the pain (refused medication because a) I didn't want to become dependant b) I felt it would only mask the feelings which would emerge once I was off any medication) I start to think about where I wanted to be and enjoying my life again
10 years on and I'm married with a loving wife 3 wonderful children (twins and a step daughter), I managed to progress well at work, although now I'm a house husband supporting my wife's career path by looking after the house and family so she can concentrate on her work and have a good family life
still have moments when I feel a little down but once I take stock of what I do have (always try to look for the positive in any situation) it soon goes away
Well said and good advice.
Best thing I've read in days. Some people in some families just cause trouble when they're around, and if you dare tell them the truth or try to stay away (or if you don't do what they expect you to do) they will play the blame game...
The only negative thoughts I have once in a while are the sadness for being away from my family and my country and knowing that it's best for my wife and kids if I stay here. Moving back to Portugal wouldn't be a smart move, so I've decided to stay here and put their well being ahead of my own will. Reminding myself of my responsibility regarding those who I love, those who need me to be there for them, that's what makes me strong.
Not sure what the latest meds are but prosac or something will short term fix you up...then you can seek out the long term counseling solution.
Pill popping isn't the ideal solution but if it's that or losing your family it's worth it (short term)
My GP always recommended that 6 months was the earliest they would review my meds - coming off them or changing, etc.
Counselling can be a mixed bag. I've been to 2 lots of sessions for counselling - 1 lot I paid for myself, the 2nd time covered by work through OH - and although I felt they helped at the time the long term benefits have escaped me. I am now seeing the NHS Psychologist (waiting list was about 6 months) and felt that my 1st couple of sessions were infinitely more beneficial to me than those 2 lots of counselling. The psychologist is really getting to the root of my issues whereas I felt the counselling I had previously was almost superficial. That's my experiences anyway. Small steps, though, as you do not want to overwhelm yourself and that means going to see you doctor first.
Dunno about that, I know someone on "head meds" and they have a pretty much instant kick in...you can tell when they take them the difference is night and day in just a few hours. As you say it's different for everyone I suppose and dependent on which meds you are actually on.
In the 1st couple of weeks when starting anti-depressants there can usually be some side-effects before you even start feeling anything remotely aces. I say 'usually' but again it effects different people in different ways. Take citalopram, for example. This was the first anti-depressant I was put on and it helped for a bit before it seemed to stop. In the 1st 2 weeks taking this, I had increased anxiety, some sickness and diarrhoea for a day or two, increased sweating..all common initial side-effects for citalopram and it's one of the least invasive. I know a few people who are on it who have experienced these when starting to take them. Coming off citalopram i had 2 endure the 'brain zaps' which i can only describe as getting a head rush when standing up too quick but faster and just when doing 'normal' things. Mirtazapine - the ones I'm on now - I had to endure binge eating and incredible drowsiness when I started taking them.
I've never felt like hi-five-ing anyone full stop :p
It should be noted that even when anti depressants work they still might not help in the ways you wanted.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread I was on citalopram for a while and it did a very good job of removing depression... Along with any other emotions or sense or purpose. "My life is crumbling around me and I'm about to be eaten by a hungry bear... That's ok, I'm just going to have a nap now"
Yeah I found that with citalopram, too. I just felt like a robot. Considering that I had felt I could've been replaced by a robot before my depression took hold I think these days that that had to be some sort of cruel joke!
The drugs don't work. They prolong the process of recovery.
Forget about all this chemical balance bull**** that you might be told. And know that your body allways produces the chemicals it needs.
I've had brain scans that showed areas of my brain that were constantly active, that are not normally active. And I was told all sorts of bull**** about this is because of a lack of this or too much of that, and was prescribed pills to 'counter' this.
The ONLY thing that works as a remedy, is to throw away the pills and eat a varied diet. Eat as much different nutrition as possible. Your physiology balances itself, it will only produce too much of something if it doesn't have all the ingredients to make what it needs, it doesn't care about mental state factors. So the only answer is to intake as much different nutrients as possible, so the body can use what it needs to balance itself.
There's a very good nutrient that kickstarted the recovery for me. Its called colloidal silver. I drank one pint of it once (that I made myself, and I've written guides for), and thought what another waste of time and went back to my daily routine. Over the next week I noticed some changes in my appearance, like the whites of my eyes were pure white instead of yellow. But one day about two weeks later, I woke up with no more back or neck pain. Back and neck pain are a side effect of the 'chemical imbalance' in the spinal fluid. All you need to make your own colloidal silver are 2x 99.999% pure silver rods, a 9v battery, 150 Ohm resistor, coffee filter, a 50mA LES bulb and BP purified water bought from the chemist.
The worst thing is to go down the route of psychiatry and anti-depressants. I know, they nearly made me end it all...
My ZX Art Music Page
Carlos Michelis Theme
Normally I'd leave this stuff but there are people posting here with real problems and I don't want them to go down the "alternative" route. Anti-depressants didn't work for Frank, they do and will for many people. Psychiatry is an inexact science but it is no conspiracy, nor are the medicines they provide part of some kind of cover-up of a non-existent miracle cure.
People should talk to their GP, take their advice, try the medicine. If it doesn't work then report it to the GP who will probably take you off it. Exercise and (yes) things like dietary changes may well help some people, but it can't be stressed enough that people should take advice from their GPs first and foremost.
:lol:
are we a bunch of hysterics? what will the commodore people think of us? we must pull ourselves together.
D.
I'm afraid they are beyond all help. There's nothing we can do for them. :S
Sympathies with the brain zaps.Every time you turn your head you think you're going to have a stroke. Utterly horrible.