And there lies the problem. They're so concerned with tablets and voice control that they've forgotten about the everyday desktop users.
Hit the nail on the head there. MS are just following the current fads. I just don't buy that tablets/mobiles will ever replace desktops/laptops anytime soon and Microsoft should realise this. They're cutting of their nose to spite their face, and the reviews I've seen of Win 8 have all been pretty 'meh'.
Fortunately for me I bought a new laptop fairly recently with Windows 7 on it (which I love - best thing Microsoft have ever done IMHO once you've trimmed all the Fischer-Price crap out of it) so that'll last a few years. If at that time the current version of Windows is still $hite and I can't install Win 7 I'll prolly go Linux.
Hit the nail on the head there. MS are just following the current fads. I just don't buy that tablets/mobiles will ever replace desktops/laptops anytime soon and Microsoft should realise this. They're cutting of their nose to spite their face, and the reviews I've seen of Win 8 have all been pretty 'meh'.
The vast majority of internet user appliances that have web browsers are *only* used for internet - even pc/tablet users - most domestic ones only ever go online. They store photos/documents online and don't use their PC for any other purpose.
Facebook & Google are both losing money because they can't ram users with advertising on mobile devices without compromising quality, so figures *do* show that more and more people are ditching PC's for mobiles. I don't know many people now that have a PC or laptop compared to 5yrs ago...
Microsoft aren't following a trend - they are making a business decision that figures show are correct. The difference is that you can still get the Win8 experience on a PC - and most users will already be familiar with it...
I'm glad you can enable it to look like more traditional Windows systems, with the Start button. I'm looking to buy a new laptop for the wife in the new year, to use for RAW photo editing so it needs to be top end so naturally will come with Windows 8. Neither of us much fancy the titles interface, at least not on a tablet.
I though the main overriding constraint of all programmers was to minimise use of memory resources, processor time and system power. Apart from a small increase in the time needed to bring the app into view and have it interactive, what's the point of this it consumes resources, increases the amount the OS has to manage and overtime could slow things down to the point where a reboot is needed, its just plain odd.
Any Windows 8 style app that isn't in the foreground is suspended, so isn't taking any system resources away from anything else. Windows can even kill the process and completely regain any resources it might otherwise choose to leave assigned to the suspended process (for example RAM that might remain allocated to allow a hot restart) if it needs to.
It's always been the job of an OS to manage resources, this is really just moving it to the next level and taking the burden of process management away from users and letting the system handle it.
Personally I believe that MS should have done is updated the OS, but made the Metro UI available as an extra that can be turned on or off.
When Windows 95 came out, there were a great many people complaining that you couldn't set it to boot into DOS mode by default and only launch Windows by typing win, as many people had their old Windows 3 machines set up. If the traditionalists had their way then, we'd still be using DOS applications.
Warning to all purchasers of a Computer bundled with Windows 8: If you want to upgrade to Windows 8 Pro: This will not work because the serial number is stored in the UEFI BIOS. So if you remove Win 8 and install Win 8 Pro, it still installs as non-Pro version!!! Installation of Windows 7 is not affected.
Er, you don't have to reinstall Windows 8 at all to upgrade to Pro, you just use the anytime upgrade option.
More ramblings .....
Well I've viewed a few win8 videos on youtube, played around abit, and at least now I can move around windows and find everything Ok.
But it all seems a bit of a hash up, clicking on a tile on the start screen which then goes to the desktop and opens a window there. Why have two main screens on a non-touchscreen laptop or desktop ?
I like closing windows, so I either have to drag the top down to the bottom, or hit alt F4.
IE9 hasn't got any toolbars, you have to right click to get the address bar, and click in that to get favourites, and I can't move fav buttons around, I still haven't found the home button !
To shut down, right click a blank space on the start screen, click on settings, click on shut down then on shut down again, what a palaver.
As someone said, its a jack of all trades for tabs, desktops, laptops the lot, that doesn't work very well on any of them.
Maybe a touchscreen laptop is the answer.
Facebook & Google are both losing money because they can't ram users with advertising on mobile devices without compromising quality, so figures *do* show that more and more people are ditching PC's for mobiles. I don't know many people now that have a PC or laptop compared to 5yrs ago...
Microsoft aren't following a trend - they are making a business decision that figures show are correct. The difference is that you can still get the Win8 experience on a PC - and most users will already be familiar with it...
Strange, up here I know only 3 people who have touch pads and if I just count my relatives (only cousins/aunts/uncles) there's 20+ who have PCs and/or laptops. Granted, most have mobiles but they only get used for checking up wee things online.
Maybe this trend hasn't caught on up here yet but even one of our local PC shops does more desktop/laptop business than anything else.
Maybe Microsoft are making a business decision, maybe it's a good one, but the actual OS is trying to cater for everyone at once instead of having different versions for different devices. Maybe that's cost effective for them to do that but it's a big turn off for me and a good number of others.
Oh, no. Every time you turn up something monumental and terrible happens.
I don’t think I have the stomach for it.
--Raziel (Legend of Kain: Soul Reaver 2)
Hit the nail on the head there. MS are just following the current fads. I just don't buy that tablets/mobiles will ever replace desktops/laptops anytime soon and Microsoft should realise this. They're cutting of their nose to spite their face, and the reviews I've seen of Win 8 have all been pretty 'meh'.
Fortunately for me I bought a new laptop fairly recently with Windows 7 on it (which I love - best thing Microsoft have ever done IMHO once you've trimmed all the Fischer-Price crap out of it) so that'll last a few years. If at that time the current version of Windows is still $hite and I can't install Win 7 I'll prolly go Linux.
Indeed. Pity computer manfacturers no longer supply Windows discs now. Luckly I know a bloke who gave me a 7 DVD-R.
Took me a while to warm to Win7. But I have set it up the way I like it.
I ran windows 8 for a full month to give a fair trial. Then, and only then did I come to understand truly the best ways to use this software: Put it in the bin.
(The UI is godawful for a desktop. And horror of horrors the tablet interface is on Win server 2012 too. What the hell were they thinking? It's like the 1970's designed the whole UI, and then made it awful. *sigh* I dun want apps. I want a desktop!)
Press the power button or close the lid and it goes to sleep unless you delve into the settings and change things. Not something your average user can do.
I've now added a shutdown tile to the start screen, makes life easier.
Strange, up here I know only 3 people who have touch pads and if I just count my relatives (only cousins/aunts/uncles) there's 20+ who have PCs and/or laptops. Granted, most have mobiles but they only get used for checking up wee things online.
Maybe this trend hasn't caught on up here yet but even one of our local PC shops does more desktop/laptop business than anything else.
Maybe Microsoft are making a business decision, maybe it's a good one, but the actual OS is trying to cater for everyone at once instead of having different versions for different devices. Maybe that's cost effective for them to do that but it's a big turn off for me and a good number of others.
I have an Android Tablet, but I use it while i'm out. It's a great emulation device, good games, and excellent apps, but it's not a PC replacement. When i'm at home, it lies dormant on a shelf next to my desktop, so no, I don't think it's a trend that hasn't caught on. I only know one other person who has a Tab. And that's my mum (and she hasn't got it yet, it's a xmas pressie from my old man lol!)
The question is, if Microsoft are gearing towards the 'mobile' generation with this OS, which it seems they are as they haven't gone out of their way (from what i've read here) to 'push' its use on desktops, how are they going to cater to PC gamers? I can't imagine any of the games I have being run on Tablets, and none of them are touch-screen compatible. Will Source 2 run on Windows 8? Doubtful. Maybe i'm wrong but it seems they're just catering for the casual user and social-networking generation and forgetting that the PC is still the best gaming/media platform around (perhaps subtly trying to ensure they shift more of their consoles too.) Is a move that I think could perplex a lot of PC developers. It's already p***ing off a ton of PC owners.
When Windows 95 came out, there were a great many people complaining that you couldn't set it to boot into DOS mode by default and only launch Windows by typing win, as many people had their old Windows 3 machines set up. If the traditionalists had their way then, we'd still be using DOS applications.
I'm sorry that is complete devils advocacy, for what reason though? Just to annoy, or to prove you are a better arguer?
You can't seriously tell me that you think not letting user's not switch the Metro interface off is a good idea?
I'm sorry that is complete devils advocacy, for what reason though? Just to annoy, or to prove you are a better arguer?
You can't seriously tell me that you think not letting user's not switch the Metro interface off is a good idea?
Given Andy's previous posts on the subject of all thing microsoft, and how fantastic anything they make is (and I've yet to see a single post of his that doesn't praise MS) I think the answer to that one is obvious.
It's quite an interesting read, and I have to agree that MS has now failed and will now spiral out of control into obscurity - but it won't be pretty as they go.
Arrgh, there's 2 versions of internet explorer, one for the desktop, that looks the same as normal with home button, favourites etc. and then another for metro, that looks and works entirely differently.
Time to try firefox and chrome, see what they look like.
I hate it again, its a lash up. Firefox installs Ok, but then everytime you launch it switches to the desktop. Whats the point of the start screen ?
To use the nice looking tiles on the start screen you need a microsoft account, which wants phone numbers, email, alternative email etc.
Windows 7 is far, far better than this.
We have a team from Microsoft on our campus this week. They have 40 or so Sony laptops and if you complete their on-line Windows 8 tutorials have a chance of winning a W8 laptop, phone or XBox. So I had a go.
I must say, even with a tutorial video running I found the whole thing convoluted. Some parts were ok, but most of it was so unfamiliar and diificult to fathom. I had to ask the Microsoft staff for help somtimes and even they could not work some things out commenting 'oh I don't know then just skip that bit'.
A swipe here, a swipe from there. Press this, that popus up then gives you none of the options one really needs. Vaguely bearable on a dedicated touch screen tablet, but on a Desktop? Its gonna give people a bad back that's what, just like them touch pens did in the 80's.
I found OneNote MX to be the worst. I use Onenote 2010 and find it very usefull on my XP tablet. Not on the Win 8, it was unusable to the point of utter frustration.
When Windows 95 came out, there were a great many people complaining that you couldn't set it to boot into DOS mode by default and only launch Windows by typing win, as many people had their old Windows 3 machines set up. If the traditionalists had their way then, we'd still be using DOS applications.
Name ten of them.
It's currently almost the end of 2012, and this is literally the first time I've heard about someone complaining that Windows 95 went straight into Windows and not to DOS.
The only complaints I heard about Win95 compared to <=3.11 was the Windows user interface changes (in other words, the change from the Program Manager to the start menu). But the change from the Program Manager to the start menu style wasn't fundamentally a terrible UI decision. The new start menu at least was straightforward and consistent.
The difference with Windows 8 is that the user interface is now jarringly inconsistent since you have Metro apps and desktop apps, and under Metro the inability to have windows in a product named Windows. That Windows 8 breaks one of the most important of Shneiderman's 8 Golden Rules of user interface design ("strive for consistency") is a fundamental flaw. However, despite this, because of the effective monopoly that Windows has on the desktop, it will make record sales regardless and people will just have to adapt to a bad user interface. I know why Microsoft are doing it, and it makes good business sense to them (leverage their desktop monopoly to compete better in the mobile world - since now Metro app makers are guaranteed a ready source of devices, i.e. PCs - in other words, it solves the chicken-and-egg problem). And I suspect the end game is the desktop will be deprecated and within a couple of generations of new versions of Windows, there will only be Metro, and Metro is fundamentally bad on a 28 inch screen where you want multiple windows open at once. The remainder of us who actually need the features of a windowed desktop (in other words, actual windows that can overlap, be resized, placed side by side, closed etc) will be forced to migrate to Mac or Linux.
It's currently almost the end of 2012, and this is literally the first time I've heard about someone complaining that Windows 95 went straight into Windows and not to DOS.
To be fair, I definitely do remember this being raised as an issue at the time, amongst people who were using DOS-based business tools (which were already stretched for memory due to running in real mode, without the overhead of having bits of Win95 remaining resident in memory too).
It's currently almost the end of 2012, and this is literally the first time I've heard about someone complaining that Windows 95 went straight into Windows and not to DOS.
To be fair, I definitely do remember this being raised as an issue at the time, amongst people who were using DOS-based business tools (which were already stretched for memory due to running in real mode, without the overhead of having bits of Win95 remaining resident in memory too).
I know of a few people from an IT course (including students and lecturers) that complained about that aswell. Hell, I was one of them until I realised that you could just delete the last line in the autoexec.bat to stop Win95 loading :p
Oh, no. Every time you turn up something monumental and terrible happens.
I don’t think I have the stomach for it.
--Raziel (Legend of Kain: Soul Reaver 2)
To be fair, I definitely do remember this being raised as an issue at the time, amongst people who were using DOS-based business tools (which were already stretched for memory due to running in real mode, without the overhead of having bits of Win95 remaining resident in memory too).
And pretty much every gamer, because nobody in their right mind would be developing games for Windows 95, because they needed direct access to the hardware and all the performance of the PC etc.
It's amazing how quickly people forget. Much as all those who hold XP aloft as the pinnacle of Windows seem to have largely forgotten how heavily criticised the 'Fisher Price' UI and dumbing down of everything was at the time of launch.
The UI in Windows 8 is far from perfect, but it's probably the best example of the inevitable convergence of laptop/tablet systems available today (certainly it works better than the progressive iOS-ification of Mac OS X). And, on balance, the Start screen is an improvement on many of the pain points of the old Start Menu, once you get past the idea that it's just different.
The last Windows I even half liked was 98, for all it's "quirks".
If I had stupid money to actually put together a custom PC that would even half stand up to the ridiculous demands of modern times I'd drop windows altogether.
As it stands my new PC runs windows 7, and although I find it quite annoying at times, and a touch unreliable for performing some of the simplest of tasks that it older brothers could perform with ease, I'm stuck with it.
I suppose I could buy a new PC bit by bit over an elongated period of time, but by the time it's ready to be assembled it'll be defunct, and I'll have to start all over again :lol:
Comments
Hit the nail on the head there. MS are just following the current fads. I just don't buy that tablets/mobiles will ever replace desktops/laptops anytime soon and Microsoft should realise this. They're cutting of their nose to spite their face, and the reviews I've seen of Win 8 have all been pretty 'meh'.
Fortunately for me I bought a new laptop fairly recently with Windows 7 on it (which I love - best thing Microsoft have ever done IMHO once you've trimmed all the Fischer-Price crap out of it) so that'll last a few years. If at that time the current version of Windows is still $hite and I can't install Win 7 I'll prolly go Linux.
WWW
The vast majority of internet user appliances that have web browsers are *only* used for internet - even pc/tablet users - most domestic ones only ever go online. They store photos/documents online and don't use their PC for any other purpose.
Facebook & Google are both losing money because they can't ram users with advertising on mobile devices without compromising quality, so figures *do* show that more and more people are ditching PC's for mobiles. I don't know many people now that have a PC or laptop compared to 5yrs ago...
Microsoft aren't following a trend - they are making a business decision that figures show are correct. The difference is that you can still get the Win8 experience on a PC - and most users will already be familiar with it...
Any Windows 8 style app that isn't in the foreground is suspended, so isn't taking any system resources away from anything else. Windows can even kill the process and completely regain any resources it might otherwise choose to leave assigned to the suspended process (for example RAM that might remain allocated to allow a hot restart) if it needs to.
It's always been the job of an OS to manage resources, this is really just moving it to the next level and taking the burden of process management away from users and letting the system handle it.
When Windows 95 came out, there were a great many people complaining that you couldn't set it to boot into DOS mode by default and only launch Windows by typing win, as many people had their old Windows 3 machines set up. If the traditionalists had their way then, we'd still be using DOS applications.
Er, you don't have to reinstall Windows 8 at all to upgrade to Pro, you just use the anytime upgrade option.
Well I've viewed a few win8 videos on youtube, played around abit, and at least now I can move around windows and find everything Ok.
But it all seems a bit of a hash up, clicking on a tile on the start screen which then goes to the desktop and opens a window there. Why have two main screens on a non-touchscreen laptop or desktop ?
I like closing windows, so I either have to drag the top down to the bottom, or hit alt F4.
IE9 hasn't got any toolbars, you have to right click to get the address bar, and click in that to get favourites, and I can't move fav buttons around, I still haven't found the home button !
To shut down, right click a blank space on the start screen, click on settings, click on shut down then on shut down again, what a palaver.
As someone said, its a jack of all trades for tabs, desktops, laptops the lot, that doesn't work very well on any of them.
Maybe a touchscreen laptop is the answer.
Maybe this trend hasn't caught on up here yet but even one of our local PC shops does more desktop/laptop business than anything else.
Maybe Microsoft are making a business decision, maybe it's a good one, but the actual OS is trying to cater for everyone at once instead of having different versions for different devices. Maybe that's cost effective for them to do that but it's a big turn off for me and a good number of others.
I don’t think I have the stomach for it.
--Raziel (Legend of Kain: Soul Reaver 2)
https://www.youtube.com/user/VincentTSFP
Indeed. Pity computer manfacturers no longer supply Windows discs now. Luckly I know a bloke who gave me a 7 DVD-R.
Took me a while to warm to Win7. But I have set it up the way I like it.
Can't believe no one appears to have suggested ZX BASIC!
That reminds me ... SpecOS, when will we get that stand-alone Sinclair Spectrum OS??????????????????????????????????????
(DUNNY!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?)
Don't tell him that - tell him to hold it!
*WHEW!*
That stranglehold was getting a bit too tight. Thank you for letting go
Or drag the top of the window to the bottom.
I ran windows 8 for a full month to give a fair trial. Then, and only then did I come to understand truly the best ways to use this software: Put it in the bin.
(The UI is godawful for a desktop. And horror of horrors the tablet interface is on Win server 2012 too. What the hell were they thinking? It's like the 1970's designed the whole UI, and then made it awful. *sigh* I dun want apps. I want a desktop!)
I've now added a shutdown tile to the start screen, makes life easier.
I have an Android Tablet, but I use it while i'm out. It's a great emulation device, good games, and excellent apps, but it's not a PC replacement. When i'm at home, it lies dormant on a shelf next to my desktop, so no, I don't think it's a trend that hasn't caught on. I only know one other person who has a Tab. And that's my mum (and she hasn't got it yet, it's a xmas pressie from my old man lol!)
The question is, if Microsoft are gearing towards the 'mobile' generation with this OS, which it seems they are as they haven't gone out of their way (from what i've read here) to 'push' its use on desktops, how are they going to cater to PC gamers? I can't imagine any of the games I have being run on Tablets, and none of them are touch-screen compatible. Will Source 2 run on Windows 8? Doubtful. Maybe i'm wrong but it seems they're just catering for the casual user and social-networking generation and forgetting that the PC is still the best gaming/media platform around (perhaps subtly trying to ensure they shift more of their consoles too.) Is a move that I think could perplex a lot of PC developers. It's already p***ing off a ton of PC owners.
- IONIAN-GAMES.com -
I'm sorry that is complete devils advocacy, for what reason though? Just to annoy, or to prove you are a better arguer?
You can't seriously tell me that you think not letting user's not switch the Metro interface off is a good idea?
Given Andy's previous posts on the subject of all thing microsoft, and how fantastic anything they make is (and I've yet to see a single post of his that doesn't praise MS) I think the answer to that one is obvious.
Anyone read this yet?:
http://semiaccurate.com/2012/11/14/microsoft-has-failed/
It's quite an interesting read, and I have to agree that MS has now failed and will now spiral out of control into obscurity - but it won't be pretty as they go.
D.
Time to try firefox and chrome, see what they look like.
To use the nice looking tiles on the start screen you need a microsoft account, which wants phone numbers, email, alternative email etc.
Windows 7 is far, far better than this.
I must say, even with a tutorial video running I found the whole thing convoluted. Some parts were ok, but most of it was so unfamiliar and diificult to fathom. I had to ask the Microsoft staff for help somtimes and even they could not work some things out commenting 'oh I don't know then just skip that bit'.
A swipe here, a swipe from there. Press this, that popus up then gives you none of the options one really needs. Vaguely bearable on a dedicated touch screen tablet, but on a Desktop? Its gonna give people a bad back that's what, just like them touch pens did in the 80's.
I found OneNote MX to be the worst. I use Onenote 2010 and find it very usefull on my XP tablet. Not on the Win 8, it was unusable to the point of utter frustration.
Name ten of them.
It's currently almost the end of 2012, and this is literally the first time I've heard about someone complaining that Windows 95 went straight into Windows and not to DOS.
The only complaints I heard about Win95 compared to <=3.11 was the Windows user interface changes (in other words, the change from the Program Manager to the start menu). But the change from the Program Manager to the start menu style wasn't fundamentally a terrible UI decision. The new start menu at least was straightforward and consistent.
The difference with Windows 8 is that the user interface is now jarringly inconsistent since you have Metro apps and desktop apps, and under Metro the inability to have windows in a product named Windows. That Windows 8 breaks one of the most important of Shneiderman's 8 Golden Rules of user interface design ("strive for consistency") is a fundamental flaw. However, despite this, because of the effective monopoly that Windows has on the desktop, it will make record sales regardless and people will just have to adapt to a bad user interface. I know why Microsoft are doing it, and it makes good business sense to them (leverage their desktop monopoly to compete better in the mobile world - since now Metro app makers are guaranteed a ready source of devices, i.e. PCs - in other words, it solves the chicken-and-egg problem). And I suspect the end game is the desktop will be deprecated and within a couple of generations of new versions of Windows, there will only be Metro, and Metro is fundamentally bad on a 28 inch screen where you want multiple windows open at once. The remainder of us who actually need the features of a windowed desktop (in other words, actual windows that can overlap, be resized, placed side by side, closed etc) will be forced to migrate to Mac or Linux.
I don’t think I have the stomach for it.
--Raziel (Legend of Kain: Soul Reaver 2)
https://www.youtube.com/user/VincentTSFP
It's amazing how quickly people forget. Much as all those who hold XP aloft as the pinnacle of Windows seem to have largely forgotten how heavily criticised the 'Fisher Price' UI and dumbing down of everything was at the time of launch.
The UI in Windows 8 is far from perfect, but it's probably the best example of the inevitable convergence of laptop/tablet systems available today (certainly it works better than the progressive iOS-ification of Mac OS X). And, on balance, the Start screen is an improvement on many of the pain points of the old Start Menu, once you get past the idea that it's just different.
If I had stupid money to actually put together a custom PC that would even half stand up to the ridiculous demands of modern times I'd drop windows altogether.
As it stands my new PC runs windows 7, and although I find it quite annoying at times, and a touch unreliable for performing some of the simplest of tasks that it older brothers could perform with ease, I'm stuck with it.
I suppose I could buy a new PC bit by bit over an elongated period of time, but by the time it's ready to be assembled it'll be defunct, and I'll have to start all over again :lol: