"From your reply, and very definition;
“Also, you don’t get the point. Yes, the SID is a chip, as is the TIA, the AY, and whatever other chips…
However, they all sound completely differently, so why would you possibly use a generic name such as ‘chiptune’ to describe them?”
…would also mean that in real world music, you couldn’t label songs typically called ‘Rock’ music or ‘Pop’ music unless they are all produced with the same instruments, setups and limitations.
It just doesn’t work that way. Chiptune music is the generic term given now to music produced by retro computers, be it the C64, Sinclair Spectrum, Atari ST, Amiga or pretty much anything else that uses a soundchip to produce music. Meanings of words change all the time in life, and trying to defend the original meaning of the word ‘chiptune’ from a website that may not even be ‘canon’ to the original meaning is pointless."
The message is awaiting moderation, and I don't hold up too much hope that he will let it pass, so that's why I wrote it here.
Chill, guys. That dude is right, even though he's simplifying things a bit. The term "chiptune" most certainly originated in the Amiga scene. Of course today the connotation has changed, and "chiptune" is used to refer to all kinds of stuff, from beeper music to VSTi-based "fakechip". Despite that I think it's not the best wording in terms of clarity - I prefer the term 'Micromusic' when talking about it in a more broad sense, and '8-bit music' when referring to stuff made on actual 8bit hardware.
That guy sounds a bit like a Fats Domino or Ray Charles fan ranting about how Usher is not R'n'B, damnit. He should learn to bend with the wind rather than trying to push it back in the direction it came from... all of that "You don't know coz you weren't there, man" type-stuff he wrote in his reply to polo seems a bit OTT if you ask me.
jeez, this is starting to piss me off. stop bashing the guy, polo, you don't know what you're talking about. ask any long term mod musician on here or on chipmusic.org and they will tell you exactly the same thing.
yes, the guy does come off a bit cross, but who wouldn't if some random uninformed person would start rambling on his blog. the guy isn't trying to push back things, he's merely pointing out some things about the origins of the term. there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, period.
jeez, this is starting to piss me off. stop bashing the guy, polo, you don't know what you're talking about. ask any long term mod musician on here or on chipmusic.org and they will tell you exactly the same thing.
yes, the guy does come off a bit cross, but who wouldn't if some random uninformed person would start rambling on his blog. the guy isn't trying to push back things, he's merely pointing out some things about the origins of the term. there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, period.
Right he may be of the origins of the 'name', his problem is that he then believes that no other retro computer music should be called chiptunes, even though the meaning of the word has changed - which happens all the time in life.
You certainly wouldn't use the words 'queer' or 'gay' in their original context any more because of what is the accepted norms for the words now. The usage of the word chiptunes, like it or not, is now generally accepted as the description for music produced by older computers with dedicated sound chips.
He even goes so far to say that the Amiga shouldn't be classed as having a sound chip due to the fact that it only has a 4 channel DAC inside of it, incapable of producing original sounds, completely missing the fact that is is nonetheless a sound chip that can play samples - chiptunes - that he is trying to defend in the first place.
He could've worded the blog entry soo much better as to not attack everyone else, simply showing the evidence of the origins of the name.
do get where the blog poster comes from, but well never overly bothered myself with it.
and yep chip music did come really into it from the ST /amiga.. where it's a sample of a sine curve or whatever used to imitate say the wave forms of the AY / SID / YM etc. that are onboard that sound chip... mainly as way to include music and not take memory.
much like follin / galway / hubbard / MON had their own players to make the chip make sounds.. or in follin's case make the tune on a tantung Einstein which in the large was portable to AY / SID etc.
chip music / chip tune etc.. is a generic term for the lot as a wider thing *BUT* in the case of the amiga and more, it's not the chip that's generating it from scratch, unless say it's midi or adlib etc.
the newer pc demos that are small , that are generating the instruments from code are interesting.
I use faked "sid" sounding like sounds in some of what I do, as after all you can do an imitation of it using a real synth.
Right he may be of the origins of the 'name', his problem is that he then believes that no other retro computer music should be called chiptunes, even though the meaning of the word has changed - which happens all the time in life.
Where exactly in his blog post do you read this? The way I read it, he's merely pointing out that many people who use the term don't know about it's origins.
You certainly wouldn't use the words 'queer' or 'gay' in their original context any more because of what is the accepted norms for the words now. The usage of the word chiptunes, like it or not, is now generally accepted as the description for music produced by older computers with dedicated sound chips.
No, it isn't. Many contemporary musicians working in that field have problems with that terminology. Just because many people are using it, doesn't mean that that's a good thing.
He even goes so far to say that the Amiga shouldn't be classed as having a sound chip due to the fact that it only has a 4 channel DAC inside of it, incapable of producing original sounds, completely missing the fact that is is nonetheless a sound chip that can play samples - chiptunes - that he is trying to defend in the first place.
The term "soundchip" is generally used to refer to Programmable Sound Chips (PSG). The Amiga has no such thing. Another debatable choice of wording, sure, but also one that is widely accepted :p
Umm, surely he just made that up? That wasn't a term used back in the day, surely. Hacked-game intros please.
Very angry blogger, and not just because of the responses. He opens his article with a deluge of fury and contempt for all who use the modern useage of the term. Makes me not care for what he's saying. Won't be reading his stuff again.
The term "soundchip" is generally used to refer to Programmable Sound Chips (PSG). The Amiga has no such thing. Another debatable choice of wording, sure, but also one that is widely accepted :p
I'm sorry, but a sound chip is a sound chip, regardless of intent or design. The Amiga had one (Paula I think it was called), and it was a 'chip' used to deliver the 'sound', hence a "soundchip". Just because others of the day were designed to create their own beeps, noises and whatever, the Amiga's was designed to play back sound recorded elsewhere - but still produced sound nonetheless.
Let go of this whole anal approach to the debate and accept the fact that no matter where the origins of the word came from, the usage now is for chip music in general.
I better not mention the conversation I had a few years ago with a 20-something year old girl who said she listened to R'n'B.
Boy did that little chat go badly.
Actually i would very much like to hear what transpired during that talk.
I, myself, find the music that is today covered by the term "R'n'B" to be a far cry from the 'Rhythm-and'Blues' that was popular in the late 50's and early-to-mid 60's, which was music that made you want to get up and dane to it, whereas the modern incarnation is perhaps more suited to sitting down and listening - for a while, until you crave some more dynamic music, like the kind they used to play in them olden days.
My synthesizers have chips in it rather than strings, strips of audio tape, vibrating forks, or rotating disks and dare I say wind pipes. Does that mean I'm making chip tunes with it?
Maybe we need a new term, 'Traditional Computer Music', or 'Classical Computer Music' or 'Low Density IC Tunes' to describe it more precisely. Anyway the the argument is academic and not much to get worked up about.
My synthesizers have chips in it rather than strings, strips of audio tape, vibrating forks, or rotating disks and dare I say wind pipes. Does that mean I'm making chip tunes with it?
Maybe we need a new term, 'Traditional Computer Music', or 'Classical Computer Music' or 'Low Density IC Tunes' to describe it more precisely. Anyway the the argument is academic and not much to get worked up about.
difference is ,that your SYNTH has a built in keyboard for music making, go try programming pong on it ;)
mellotron (strips of tape) it technically a sampler hehe.. just to mix it up even more ;)
I'd suppose that the main thing is that music for 8-bit micros generally had quite a distinctive sound to it due to the lack of tones and polyphony available.
Once computers started to come equipped with the ability to play umpteen channels of FM synthesis and samples it ceased being a genre in its own right and became an extension of pop music generally.
Umm, surely he just made that up? That wasn't a term used back in the day, surely. Hacked-game intros please.
intros or cracktros, .. only probably later referred to it later as the latter due to demos having intro's as well (and the people original writing intros for crackers to put in front of games, became demo/game makers also in some cases, c64 being a prime example) .. hacking isn't the same as cracking either.hacking is normally for accessing remote machines etc. even in dial up days before the net. even though some early crackers might put "hacked by" on their intro.. that was early days.. they were more likely to use terms like "broken by" . this lot being a prime example :) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFqBkSJOYOQ
and in some cases the poachers became the game keepers (a few well known names wrote protection systems)
I find it funny jon twiddy (legendary 64 coder, last ninja , ikari warriors, cyberload) also helped with software for the expert cart.
I'm sorry, but a sound chip is a sound chip, regardless of intent or design. The Amiga had one (Paula I think it was called), and it was a 'chip' used to deliver the 'sound', hence a "soundchip". Just because others of the day were designed to create their own beeps, noises and whatever, the Amiga's was designed to play back sound recorded elsewhere - but still produced sound nonetheless.
Well, that's a pretty creative (not to mention desparate) interpretation.
I didn't say the Amiga doesn't have a sound chip. On the contrary. The blog literally says:
"Which ironically enough was one of the first computers that did not have an onboard synthesizer at all. Its audio chip was little more than 4 DACs."
So, audio chip, sound chip... Clearly I acknowledge that the Amiga has one. I also mention it a few times in the comments.
The sentence you are desperately pulling out of context is this:
“Aside from that, the Amiga REALLY doesn’t belong in the list of computers you just mentioned, seeing as it does NOT have a soundchip that produces music.”
You are pulling it apart as: "it does NOT have a soundchip", where I actually say: "a soundchip that produces music".
I later clarify that by making the distinction between producing/generating sound/music vs reproducing sound/music.
The Amiga's sound chip merely reproduces waveforms, it does not produce waveforms.
I mainly see people from this forum being anal about not giving credit to the Amiga for originating the term 'chiptune'.
As utz pointed out, I'm just pointing out the origins. Somehow this causes some cognitive dissonance in some of you, and you reverse the statement as if I said that only Amiga tunes are being called or should be called 'chiptunes'.
I said no such thing.
My synthesizers have chips in it rather than strings, strips of audio tape, vibrating forks, or rotating disks and dare I say wind pipes. Does that mean I'm making chip tunes with it?
Maybe we need a new term, 'Traditional Computer Music', or 'Classical Computer Music' or 'Low Density IC Tunes' to describe it more precisely. Anyway the the argument is academic and not much to get worked up about.
Couldn't agree more. Sorry guys if I was a bit harsh last night, it just seemed to me that you were unfairly bashing Scali, and I despise unfairness.
Umm, surely he just made that up? That wasn't a term used back in the day, surely. Hacked-game intros please.
If you want to troll, at least get it right.
This debate is usually between C64 and Amiga users, where C64 users still called things "crack intros" where in the Amiga days, it became common to shorten them to "cracktro". "Cracktro" and "chiptune" date from the same era.
As for hacking vs cracking...
fog already covered that somewhat, but I'd like to point out that in the early days, 'hacking' was merely about being a skilled programmer, someone who would think outside the box and use the machine for things that were seemingly impossible.
It only became associated with unauthorized break-ins and such later (which is still different from cracking software protections).
Actually i would very much like to hear what transpired during that talk.
There's not too much to tell really. It was at a party and, at the time, although I'd heard of a lot of the artists she'd mentioned, I had no comprehension that they called them selves R'n'B. Nor did I have any idea that very much in the way of anything called R'n'B was being produced after the late 1970s. She had no idea that there was anything called R'n'B before the 1990s.
So we went from that awkward "What common ground are we going to find to talk about?" stage, through the "Excellent, we both share a common interest...", to "Abort! Abort! This is going very wrong." stage all in the space of about 4 minutes.
I came away feeling like a 500 year old dinosaur, she probably came away feeling like I'd belittled her taste in music. It was not a good chat!
ccowley, It probably works like that with most music genres: Talk to somebody who got into Techno in the 80s and they'll tell you that what's being labelled Techno today has nothing to do with it. Even more so with Psychedelica and Minimal. Especially the latter one's connotation has changed several times already. [and it certainly isn't a good thing imo]
One last word about the chiptune thing, then I'll quit the discussion, because I feel we're running in circles here. How about we just call it .... waiiiit for it...... CHIP MUSIC. because unlike CHIP TUNE, this didn't originate in the amiga scene, as far as I recall.
ccowley, It probably works like that with most music genres: Talk to somebody who got into Techno in the 80s and they'll tell you that what's being labelled Techno today has nothing to do with it. Even more so with Psychedelica and Minimal. Especially the latter one's connotation has changed several times already. [and it certainly isn't a good thing imo]
One last word about the chiptune thing, then I'll quit the discussion, because I feel we're running in circles here. How about we just call it .... waiiiit for it...... CHIP MUSIC. because unlike CHIP TUNE, this didn't originate in the amiga scene, as far as I recall.
Comments
"From your reply, and very definition;
“Also, you don’t get the point. Yes, the SID is a chip, as is the TIA, the AY, and whatever other chips…
However, they all sound completely differently, so why would you possibly use a generic name such as ‘chiptune’ to describe them?”
…would also mean that in real world music, you couldn’t label songs typically called ‘Rock’ music or ‘Pop’ music unless they are all produced with the same instruments, setups and limitations.
It just doesn’t work that way. Chiptune music is the generic term given now to music produced by retro computers, be it the C64, Sinclair Spectrum, Atari ST, Amiga or pretty much anything else that uses a soundchip to produce music. Meanings of words change all the time in life, and trying to defend the original meaning of the word ‘chiptune’ from a website that may not even be ‘canon’ to the original meaning is pointless."
The message is awaiting moderation, and I don't hold up too much hope that he will let it pass, so that's why I wrote it here.
That guy sounds a bit like a Fats Domino or Ray Charles fan ranting about how Usher is not R'n'B, damnit. He should learn to bend with the wind rather than trying to push it back in the direction it came from... all of that "You don't know coz you weren't there, man" type-stuff he wrote in his reply to polo seems a bit OTT if you ask me.
yes, the guy does come off a bit cross, but who wouldn't if some random uninformed person would start rambling on his blog. the guy isn't trying to push back things, he's merely pointing out some things about the origins of the term. there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, period.
it was boring at first, but now its quite interesting. :-D
Games List 2016 - Games List 2015 - Games List 2014
Right he may be of the origins of the 'name', his problem is that he then believes that no other retro computer music should be called chiptunes, even though the meaning of the word has changed - which happens all the time in life.
You certainly wouldn't use the words 'queer' or 'gay' in their original context any more because of what is the accepted norms for the words now. The usage of the word chiptunes, like it or not, is now generally accepted as the description for music produced by older computers with dedicated sound chips.
He even goes so far to say that the Amiga shouldn't be classed as having a sound chip due to the fact that it only has a 4 channel DAC inside of it, incapable of producing original sounds, completely missing the fact that is is nonetheless a sound chip that can play samples - chiptunes - that he is trying to defend in the first place.
He could've worded the blog entry soo much better as to not attack everyone else, simply showing the evidence of the origins of the name.
Boy did that little chat go badly.
and yep chip music did come really into it from the ST /amiga.. where it's a sample of a sine curve or whatever used to imitate say the wave forms of the AY / SID / YM etc. that are onboard that sound chip... mainly as way to include music and not take memory.
much like follin / galway / hubbard / MON had their own players to make the chip make sounds.. or in follin's case make the tune on a tantung Einstein which in the large was portable to AY / SID etc.
chip music / chip tune etc.. is a generic term for the lot as a wider thing *BUT* in the case of the amiga and more, it's not the chip that's generating it from scratch, unless say it's midi or adlib etc.
the newer pc demos that are small , that are generating the instruments from code are interesting.
I use faked "sid" sounding like sounds in some of what I do, as after all you can do an imitation of it using a real synth.
Where exactly in his blog post do you read this? The way I read it, he's merely pointing out that many people who use the term don't know about it's origins.
No, it isn't. Many contemporary musicians working in that field have problems with that terminology. Just because many people are using it, doesn't mean that that's a good thing.
The term "soundchip" is generally used to refer to Programmable Sound Chips (PSG). The Amiga has no such thing. Another debatable choice of wording, sure, but also one that is widely accepted :p
I agree, the wording could be better. However the actual content is accurate, I believe.
"Cracktros"?
Umm, surely he just made that up? That wasn't a term used back in the day, surely. Hacked-game intros please.
Very angry blogger, and not just because of the responses. He opens his article with a deluge of fury and contempt for all who use the modern useage of the term. Makes me not care for what he's saying. Won't be reading his stuff again.
Loved the following arguments though. :D
I'm sorry, but a sound chip is a sound chip, regardless of intent or design. The Amiga had one (Paula I think it was called), and it was a 'chip' used to deliver the 'sound', hence a "soundchip". Just because others of the day were designed to create their own beeps, noises and whatever, the Amiga's was designed to play back sound recorded elsewhere - but still produced sound nonetheless.
Let go of this whole anal approach to the debate and accept the fact that no matter where the origins of the word came from, the usage now is for chip music in general.
Yup, both "garage" and "swing" are also not the genres they used to be.
I take it she'd never heard of Aretha Franklin or Janis Joplin? I've had that conversation a few times too...
Actually i would very much like to hear what transpired during that talk.
I, myself, find the music that is today covered by the term "R'n'B" to be a far cry from the 'Rhythm-and'Blues' that was popular in the late 50's and early-to-mid 60's, which was music that made you want to get up and dane to it, whereas the modern incarnation is perhaps more suited to sitting down and listening - for a while, until you crave some more dynamic music, like the kind they used to play in them olden days.
Feel free to help yourself to the Sinclair ZX Spectrum +3 Manual.pdf
Maybe we need a new term, 'Traditional Computer Music', or 'Classical Computer Music' or 'Low Density IC Tunes' to describe it more precisely. Anyway the the argument is academic and not much to get worked up about.
difference is ,that your SYNTH has a built in keyboard for music making, go try programming pong on it ;)
mellotron (strips of tape) it technically a sampler hehe.. just to mix it up even more ;)
Once computers started to come equipped with the ability to play umpteen channels of FM synthesis and samples it ceased being a genre in its own right and became an extension of pop music generally.
intros or cracktros, .. only probably later referred to it later as the latter due to demos having intro's as well (and the people original writing intros for crackers to put in front of games, became demo/game makers also in some cases, c64 being a prime example) .. hacking isn't the same as cracking either.hacking is normally for accessing remote machines etc. even in dial up days before the net. even though some early crackers might put "hacked by" on their intro.. that was early days.. they were more likely to use terms like "broken by" . this lot being a prime example :) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFqBkSJOYOQ
and in some cases the poachers became the game keepers (a few well known names wrote protection systems)
I find it funny jon twiddy (legendary 64 coder, last ninja , ikari warriors, cyberload) also helped with software for the expert cart.
Well, that's a pretty creative (not to mention desparate) interpretation.
I didn't say the Amiga doesn't have a sound chip. On the contrary. The blog literally says:
"Which ironically enough was one of the first computers that did not have an onboard synthesizer at all. Its audio chip was little more than 4 DACs."
So, audio chip, sound chip... Clearly I acknowledge that the Amiga has one. I also mention it a few times in the comments.
The sentence you are desperately pulling out of context is this:
“Aside from that, the Amiga REALLY doesn’t belong in the list of computers you just mentioned, seeing as it does NOT have a soundchip that produces music.”
You are pulling it apart as: "it does NOT have a soundchip", where I actually say: "a soundchip that produces music".
I later clarify that by making the distinction between producing/generating sound/music vs reproducing sound/music.
The Amiga's sound chip merely reproduces waveforms, it does not produce waveforms.
I mainly see people from this forum being anal about not giving credit to the Amiga for originating the term 'chiptune'.
As utz pointed out, I'm just pointing out the origins. Somehow this causes some cognitive dissonance in some of you, and you reverse the statement as if I said that only Amiga tunes are being called or should be called 'chiptunes'.
I said no such thing.
Couldn't agree more. Sorry guys if I was a bit harsh last night, it just seemed to me that you were unfairly bashing Scali, and I despise unfairness.
what about this then? (sorry, couldn't resist)
If you want to troll, at least get it right.
This debate is usually between C64 and Amiga users, where C64 users still called things "crack intros" where in the Amiga days, it became common to shorten them to "cracktro". "Cracktro" and "chiptune" date from the same era.
As for hacking vs cracking...
fog already covered that somewhat, but I'd like to point out that in the early days, 'hacking' was merely about being a skilled programmer, someone who would think outside the box and use the machine for things that were seemingly impossible.
It only became associated with unauthorized break-ins and such later (which is still different from cracking software protections).
So we went from that awkward "What common ground are we going to find to talk about?" stage, through the "Excellent, we both share a common interest...", to "Abort! Abort! This is going very wrong." stage all in the space of about 4 minutes.
I came away feeling like a 500 year old dinosaur, she probably came away feeling like I'd belittled her taste in music. It was not a good chat!
hands fog a napkin.
you just got served. :D
One last word about the chiptune thing, then I'll quit the discussion, because I feel we're running in circles here. How about we just call it .... waiiiit for it...... CHIP MUSIC. because unlike CHIP TUNE, this didn't originate in the amiga scene, as far as I recall.
@Scottie_uk Hahahaha genius!
Yes, but Chip Music has a very specific meaning in the Atari ST scene...
(Just kidding. :p)
aaahhhrrggg, you got me there :oops: