Is it me or am I getting old... Windows 8

edited March 2013 in Chit chat
Hi Folks,

Now I understand that Microsoft Windows is not everyone's cup of tea and that others are Apple Mac, Linux fans etc.

However, I have been using Windows since version 3.0 and whilst not every release has been great it has been an incremental journey. Currently I am using Windows 7 64 bit and for me it works well, is quick, stable and I like the UI.

Which brings me to my question. I do not get the new Metro interface on Windows 8. It may look good on a Phone or Pad (not tried it) but as a desktop UI is looks awful IMHO. Microsoft has stripped all the finesse and cute graphics from the UI. It is like going back to 80x25 in DOS - I bet the new version of Word will look like WordPerfect 5.0 on DOS! :-)

I bought my wife a Google Nexus 7 for her birthday and I have to say that Android works well. They still have cute 3D UI elements (like Apple) so why on earth has Microsoft ditched this.

Am I getting old and are Microsoft is right...

Paddy
Post edited by Paddy Coleman on
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Comments

  • edited March 2013
    A quick google of "windows 8" should supply the answer :p
  • edited March 2013
    Is there no 'Classic View' option on Windows 8?..I don't like the look of the interface myself. Currently using XP, Vista and Windows 7 on various computers.
  • edited March 2013
    beanz wrote: »
    Is there no 'Classic View' option on Windows 8?..I don't like the look of the interface myself. Currently using XP, Vista and Windows 7 on various computers.

    Hi Beanz,

    From what I have read there is desktop mode but no Start menu. Also, the applications are mix of "Classic" and "Metro" so you never know what you are going get. Also, Metro apps run full screen so Windows no longer has er... Windows! :-x

    It would seem to be very similar to the situation we had back in DOS/Windows 3.0 days where you ran a mixture of character DOS apps and some Windows apps. It was not attractive then and it certainly is not attractive in 2013!

    Paddy
  • edited March 2013
    At this rate I will have to buy an Apple Mac as my next PC! :(

    Paddy
  • edited March 2013
    beanz wrote: »
    Is there no 'Classic View' option on Windows 8?..I don't like the look of the interface myself. Currently using XP, Vista and Windows 7 on various computers.

    The non metro interface is frankly hideous too. It's almost like they've made it as ugly as possible to put people off it.

    Things like window icons, title text and ui controls all aligned to different things etc. Who on earth looked at that and said "ok, that looks good, lets ship it like that"
  • edited March 2013
    At this rate I will have to buy an Apple Mac as my next PC! :(

    Paddy

    Eww. How will that help? :)
  • edited March 2013
    guesser wrote: »
    The non metro interface is frankly hideous too. It's almost like they've made it as ugly as possible to put people off it.

    Things like window icons, title text and ui controls all aligned to different things etc. Who on earth looked at that and said "ok, that looks good, lets ship it like that"

    Sad to hear... personally I believe they need to get 8.1 out there ASAP.

    Paddy
  • edited March 2013
    guesser wrote: »
    Eww. How will that help? :)

    LOL - well hopefully Apple will stick with their rich UI. Alternatively, I will stay on Windows 7 until Microsoft admit the error of their ways! No chance. :lol:

    Paddy
  • edited March 2013
    Sad to hear... personally I believe they need to get 8.1 out there ASAP.

    Paddy

    Next version will presumably be called Windows 9.

    I very much doubt they would use a point number. The "8" is just a name, like 7 was, having little to do with the version number which is 6.1 for Windows 7, and 6.2 for Windows 8 :-)
  • edited March 2013
    LOL - well hopefully Apple will stick with their rich UI. Alternatively, I will stay on Windows 7 until Microsoft admit the error of their ways! No chance. :lol:

    One menu bar on top of the primary display, shared between all applications is a rich UI? Pfft!
  • edited March 2013
    guesser wrote: »
    Next version will presumably be called Windows 9.

    I very much doubt they would use a point number. The "8" is just a name, like 7 was, having little to do with the version number which is 6.1 for Windows 7, and 6.2 for Windows 8 :-)

    Hi Guesser,

    I don't care what they call it. This new Metro thing just looks like a retrograde step to me. Having said that, I totally accept that I come from a different generation where 3D UIs were new and exciting. May be the youngsters of today prefer a nice flat text only environment?

    Paddy
  • edited March 2013
    The rationale between putting Metro into Windows 8 was presumably to create a greater degree of interoperability between the desktop and mobile versions of their software. Unfortunately, next to nobody has a Windows phone or tablet, so it's a waste of time from that perspective; and you're stuck with a mobile interface on a desktop OS as a result.

    Perhaps Microsoft were hoping that it'd get people to go out and buy Windows phones and tablets to benefit from their new found experience with Metro, but it's copped such a backlash that I doubt they're going to do that either. I'd guess that they've figured out that the worst thing that could happen is that it'll be another Vista and people will stick with 7 like they did with XP, while they wait for a less borked version to come out.
  • edited March 2013
    Matt_B wrote: »
    The rationale between putting Metro into Windows 8 was presumably to create a greater degree of interoperability between the desktop and mobile versions of their software. Unfortunately, next to nobody has a Windows phone or tablet, so it's a waste of time from that perspective; and you're stuck with a mobile interface on a desktop OS as a result.

    Perhaps Microsoft were hoping that it'd get people to go out and buy Windows phones and tablets to benefit from their new found experience with Metro, but it's copped such a backlash that I doubt they're going to do that either. I'd guess that they've figured out that the worst thing that could happen is that it'll be another Vista and people will stick with 7 like they did with XP, while they wait for a less borked version to come out.

    Hi Matt,

    Reading some more about Metro and how it came about. You got to love these tech analysts who apparently praised Metro before it was released - how it was new, fresh, clean, fast, user friendly. Shame the actual users are finding it rather unfriendly.

    This could be serious for Microsoft if they are not careful. As I said, I have been a Windows user since version 3.0 - even wrote a book about it. That must be about 20 years and in all that time I have never considered moving to another OS - not UNIX, Linux, iOS, OS X, OS/2 you name it. For the first time I feel that I cannot move forward with Microsoft and so would consider an alternative.

    If they run the risk of losing die hard users like me then I would be worried if I was them.

    Paddy
  • edited March 2013
    Reading some more about Metro and how it came about. You got to love these tech analysts who apparently praised Metro before it was released - how it was new, fresh, clean, fast, user friendly. Shame the actual users are finding it rather unfriendly.

    I think it was new, fresh, clean, fast when it first appeared. It was an interesting new way of doing the UI for a phone or tablet. However, it really falls down when it is shoehorned into the desktop. The mish-mash of UI styles is really jarring. The worst is when some control panel starts off Explorer style then jumps to Metro for some option or other.
  • edited March 2013
    Hi Matt,

    Reading some more about Metro and how it came about. You got to love these tech analysts who apparently praised Metro before it was released - how it was new, fresh, clean, fast, user friendly. Shame the actual users are finding it rather unfriendly.

    This could be serious for Microsoft if they are not careful. As I said, I have been a Windows user since version 3.0 - even wrote a book about it. That must be about 20 years and in all that time I have never considered moving to another OS - not UNIX, Linux, iOS, OS X, OS/2 you name it. For the first time I feel that I cannot move forward with Microsoft and so would consider an alternative.

    If they run the risk of losing die hard users like me then I would be worried if I was them.

    Paddy

    Cheers Paddy,

    You can say all that, but we really have been here before several times. The early versions of Windows NT, Windows ME and Vista were equally massive missteps that the market by and large decided to skip a generation over.

    And for all its ills, I don't really think Windows 8 is worse than any of those. With Windows 7 having pretty much hit the mark, and offering extended support to 2020, they've got plenty of time to get back on track with the next version.

    Seeing as the main problem with 8 is that they're trying to flog the dead horse that is Metro with it, there's not really a lot of fixing to do, other than just getting their priorities straight.
  • edited March 2013
    @guesser: The menu always in the same place is actually pretty good - you can reach it purely by muscle memory since it's always in the same place. It does however fall down a bit on multi-monitor setups as the menu may be futher away than it ought to be. The other thing noticable about OS X is that the keyboard shortcuts are generally highly consistent between apps, so you don't even need to use the menus that much.

    On the Start Menu, I think Microsoft hugely missed the point. They said that usage stats said a lot of people just didn't use it, so therefore that means we should drop it. However the huge blunder here (and it was hugely faulty thinking to do this) is that it's the "expert users" who don't use it - those who've had their computer a while and learned the shortcuts to their apps. (One of Shneiderman's 8 Golden Rules on user interface design is to "enable frequent users shortcuts"). What the Start Menu did provide was discoverability - you have a new computer or new application, and the start menu nicely enumerates ALL of your options making them easy to discover. Then later you learn the shortcuts to them.

    Basically Microsoft took the discoverability away from the user interface, preventing users from even learning what's on their computer in an easy manner. This is why the desktop-mode part of Windows 8 is so flawed.
  • edited March 2013
    Winston wrote: »
    @guesser: The menu always in the same place is actually pretty good - you can reach it purely by muscle memory since it's always in the same place. It does however fall down a bit on multi-monitor setups as the menu may be futher away than it ought to be.

    Or even high screen resolutions, which ironically apple have always been pushing higher and higher.

    Again, it works fine if you have one fullscreen app but if you do multiple things at a time it means twice as much mousing about if you have to first go all the way to the bottom right of the screen to click a window so it has focus, then go all the way back to the top left to click a menu, etc.

    Sure you could use keyboard shortcuts to change focus, but in that case you may as well use the keyboard for the menu actions too which renders the "you can crash the mouse into the corner of the screen" argument irrelevant :p
  • edited March 2013
    Use Classic Shell - and you'll have something more like Windows XP or 7 again :-)

    http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

    And it's FREE!
    No one important.
  • edited March 2013
    daveykins wrote: »
    Use Classic Shell - and you'll have something more like Windows XP or 7 again :-)

    http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

    And it's FREE!

    I know there are 3rd party options but this should not be necessary IMHO.

    Paddy
  • edited March 2013
    Of course they shouldn't .... but somehow I doubt MS will change their mind - although perhaps a future update will include the option... or Windows 9 will.
    No one important.
  • edited March 2013
    I've been using windows 8 for over a year on my netbook and although I'd never put it on my main HTPC (7 pro x64) it is fine and usable, especially for less than ?30.

    In fairness my modified AmigaOS 3.1 install is more intuitive than metro.
  • edited March 2013
    guesser wrote: »
    Or even high screen resolutions, which ironically apple have always been pushing higher and higher.

    Well, actually no, it's not a problem with higher resolution screens. The thing is Mac OSX isn't like Windows of Vista and older (which had no clue about your screen's DPI, meaning everything goes really tiny if you had a high res display), Mac OSX pretty much since it was new has been aware of your DPI. My screen is 2560x1440 which is as high resolution as you get on a desktop on a single screen, and the menu bar is no further away mouse-wise than the menu bar on my ancient PowerBook which has a 1024x768 display.
  • edited March 2013
    I bought and installed Win 8 Pro in January, and less than 3 weeks later I went back to Win 7 64.

    The Windows GUI has always been designed to be mouse-driven, yet despite this, Microsoft moved the start menu from the desktop, made it a giant full-screen size which was accessed from the desktop by moving the mouse into the corner of the desktop via the 'charms' bar. RSI-tastic!

    They also decided to party like it's 1992, removing all the lovely GUI effects - stuff like transparent windows - and use a style more basic than Windows 3.1 - probably to save battery power on tablets.

    There is plenty more I could moan about, but ina nutshell Win 8 is a confusing Jekyll and Hyde OS, trying to fit into a desktop world and tablet world at the same time, and being good at neither.

    There's a reason why Apple keep iOS and OSX seperate, and Microsoft have failed to realize it's because tablet touch interfaces don't work well on 24 inch monitors with a mouse.
  • edited March 2013
    Winston wrote: »
    Well, actually no, it's not a problem with higher resolution screens. The thing is Mac OSX isn't like Windows of Vista and older (which had no clue about your screen's DPI, meaning everything goes really tiny if you had a high res display), Mac OSX pretty much since it was new has been aware of your DPI. My screen is 2560x1440 which is as high resolution as you get on a desktop on a single screen, and the menu bar is no further away mouse-wise than the menu bar on my ancient PowerBook which has a 1024x768 display.

    If you just make the text and all the windows bigger then there's little point having a high resolution display... :p
  • edited March 2013
    TBH I think you can probably ignore Windows 8 if you want to.. Lots of people are still using XP as it still does what they want and is a very stable platform. 7 is a decent 'bedrock platform' as well, (it had to be after the Vista calamity), so if you can't be arsed to use 8, don't bother... They'll either fix it or It'll have crap sales and they'll be forced to re-visit their policies again.

    Most companies are a gen or two behind the newest operating system on the market, as it's generally bug-ridden.. I remember when Vista was new, back in 2007.. A colleague of mine who started just after me had come from a 6 month rolling contract with Microsoft on their support staff.. She said it was a joke, as they were providing support for Vista and the management had decreed that everyone's PC had to be running Vista also, as it was their flagship product.

    She said that while they were trying to provide support to customers having issues with the OS, their own PCs were crashing every 5 minutes, making them feel and look very silly. Meanwhile, people were still using XP, which was very stable by then and continues to be so.
  • ASMASM
    edited March 2013
    I'm never using, owning or having Windows 8 in my house!!! IT STOPS NOW!!!
  • edited March 2013
    7 is pretty good - but the Classic Shell I mentioned earlier give it an xp-like start menu... which I prefer to the default 7-style one.
    No one important.
  • edited March 2013
    The gap between laptops and tablets is pretty much disappearing, having a tablet that can't also act as a laptop is going to seem ridiculous in a few years. And the market for full on desktop PCs has been diminishing for years. Is Windows 8 the perfect answer to dealing with that? No, but it's certainly a big step in the right direction. And it works better than the gradual iOS-ification of Mac OS that Apple have been trying.
  • edited March 2013
    Winston wrote: »
    Basically Microsoft took the discoverability away from the user interface, preventing users from even learning what's on their computer in an easy manner. This is why the desktop-mode part of Windows 8 is so flawed.
    "Discoverability" has been shown over the years to be one of the biggest red herrings in user interface design. It turns out that, more often than not, making a feature "easily discoverable" simply results in it being less convenient once you know it is there and far too in-your-face for most people. After all you only need to "discover" it once, so it's a poor scenario to optimize for.
  • edited March 2013
    The Windows 8 UI is clearly a massive clusterf**k as evidenced by the vast majority of people who've written about using it on the internet.

    Best bet for a desktop UI for general layperson usage now (i.e. for someone who wants to surf the web, use iTunes to manage their music, edit the odd document or spreadsheet, is probably either Debian (which I've set up on a couple of laptops for non-tech people now as a Windows replacement, and they're perfectly happy) or, if you have the money to burn, a Mac.

    Only downside of Debian is the reduced printer support compared with Windows, but as inkjet printers are pretty much disposable items it's not such a big deal to buy one that works with Linux. Also, the announcement that China is going to develop atop Ubuntu as it's national standard OS is great news for the future of hardware support (as that is where most devices are manufactured).

    Only reason to stick with Win8 is if you want to play the latest Windows games - the stuff that doesn't work properly with WINE, etc.
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