The Elite ZX Spectrum bluetooth keyboard and their implementation of key ghosting.

edited January 2014 in Hardware
They have plans to release it September 2014.
http://bluetoothzxspectrum.elite-systems.co.uk/index.php

They have also a Kickstarter page, in which the project roadmap is detailed.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/952953995/1706707152?token=178af0ea

In there, a technical appendix can be found
a) Technical Challenges To The Development Of The Bluetooth? ZX Spectrum?

“The developers of the Sinclair ZX Spectrum faced many technical challenges in the process of developing and perfecting the device, including but not limited to ‘keyboard ghosting’. ‘Keyboard ghosting’ is an artefact of most keyboards, ancient and modern.” See this link for further information. “In essence, ‘keyboard ghosting’ is the problem that some keyboard keys don't work when multiple keys are pressed simultaneously. The key presses that don't show up on the computer or seem to have disappeared are said to have been "ghosted". In the case of the Sinclair ZX Spectrum, ‘keyboard ghosting’ showed itself when three keys were pressed at once. For example, in a shooting game when pressing two direction keys at once, (to create a diagonal movement for a character) and a third key at the same time to ‘shoot’, ‘keyboard ghosting’ exhibits itself as either a pause in the characters’ lateral and / or longitudinal movement, or as the failure of the shot to appear.”

WTF??? Isn't key ghosting just the opposite?? i.e. keys that appear to be pressed when they aren't actually?? I've never experienced missing key strokes because of pressing many keys (except when you use the ROM routines to read the keyboard).
Post edited by mcleod_ideafix on
«1

Comments

  • edited December 2013
    WTF??? Isn't key ghosting just the opposite?? i.e. keys that appear to be pressed when they aren't actually?? I've never experienced missing key strokes because of pressing many keys (

    It looks like it was quoting from a Microsoft article. A couple of other sites also seem to quote the same article to explain ghosting.

    OTOH, this technical article seems to suggest what you said. And after reading the article, I'm inclined to agree with you.
  • edited December 2013
    My understanding of the ghosting phenomena is as follows:

    Let's say you have a very simple keyboard with nine keys, arranged as a 3x3 matrix, like this:
    tec1.png

    When you want to scan the keyboard and look for pressed keys, you pull down each of the Fx lines, maintaining the others at high level. For example, this would read keys at F0 (keys A,B or C) which would output through D0,D1 and D2.
    tec2.png

    But, what if I have three keys pressed at the time the processor is doing the scan? Let's say I have keys A,G and I pressed and I'm scanning F0 to see if A, B or C are pressed:
    tec3.png

    What happens here is that the low level from F0 propagates through D0 because A is pressed. From there, it propagates to F2 because G is pressed, and finally, from there propagates to D2 because I is pressed. The processor will read D0=0 and D2=0, making it believe that keys A and C have been pressed instead of only A!
    tec4.png
  • edited December 2013
    In ULA Book it is called 'phantom keys'. That was one of disadvantages of original IF2 joystick ports - you could turn the player of your opponent :-) :D
  • edited December 2013
    I've never experienced missing key strokes because of pressing many keys (except when you use the ROM routines to read the keyboard).

    I don't know the exact details but AFAIK, there is in fact a form of this on the Speccy. A few emulators out there seem to support this 'feature', e.g. SpecEmu (at least that's what I think it was when it wouldn't detect diagonal movements when using cursor keys). I'm guessing that's also half the reason the common key layout in games came to be QAOPM/QAOPSp, seeing as this combination isn't affected.
  • edited December 2013
    PC keyboards use a matrix too, and some (particularly Microsoft ones) simply refuse to transmit more than three simultaneous keypresses back to the PC. Personally I don't believe it's a ghosting issue; I just think Microsoft make c^nty keyboards. I did start using one for its ergonomics, but I'm unable to activate the cheat mode in my own game!
    Joefish
    - IONIAN-GAMES.com -
  • edited December 2013
    Steve Wilcox is clueless and rambling. No big surprise there...it's been going on for a while now.
    Website: Tardis Remakes / Mostly remakes of Arcade and ZX Spectrum games.
    My games for the Spectrum: Dingo, The Speccies, The Speccies 2, Vallation, SQIJ.
    Twitter: Sokurah
  • edited December 2013
    I'm not sure why it should be a technical challenge anyway. Just build your keyboard matrix the same as the speccy and it will behave exactly as a speccy - saves implementing the keyboard ghosting in the emulator!

    If you're going to start removing the limitations of the original may I suggest a few more things that could benefit from improvement:

    1) lack of index markers
    2) almost no travel
    3) no tactile feedback
    4) awkward position of keys
    5) narrow keys with huge voids between rows
    6) horrible rubbery texture

    in fact, now I come to think of it, just build a bluetooth Model M instead!

    ;)
  • edited December 2013
    joefish wrote: »
    I'm unable to activate the cheat mode in my own game!
    It must be a brutally hard game if even you need to cheat! ;)
  • edited December 2013
    WTF??? Isn't key ghosting just the opposite?? i.e. keys that appear to be pressed when they aren't actually??
    That was general knowledge in the 80's. And there were plenty of diagrams like yours to prove the case. The issue was mostly found under the heading 'keyboard rollover'.
    Of course a ghost key replaces the pressed key combination, so there are keys disappearing.

    Edit: I found this one: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Rollover,_blocking_and_ghosting
  • edited December 2013
    joefish wrote: »
    PC keyboards use a matrix too, and some (particularly Microsoft ones) simply refuse to transmit more than three simultaneous keypresses back to the PC. Personally I don't believe it's a ghosting issue; I just think Microsoft make c^nty keyboards. I did start using one for its ergonomics, but I'm unable to activate the cheat mode in my own game!

    That's the main reason they made the SideWinder X4 though; it can handle up to 26 simultaneous keypresses, which ought to be enough unless you're a hardcore gaming octopus.
  • edited December 2013
    Is this the same keyboard they announced a couple of years ago?

    Won't believe it until it happens.
    I wanna tell you a story 'bout a woman I know...
  • edited December 2013
    Just in case I've just bought a Bluetooth HID module ($19,95) at Sparkfun, and I'm planning asking one of my dead Spectrums to donate its keyboard :)
  • edited December 2013
    joefish wrote: »
    PC keyboards use a matrix too, and some (particularly Microsoft ones) simply refuse to transmit more than three simultaneous keypresses back to the PC. Personally I don't believe it's a ghosting issue; I just think Microsoft make c^nty keyboards. I did start using one for its ergonomics, but I'm unable to activate the cheat mode in my own game!

    I think MS make fab keyboards, in a quick test my Microsoft Sidewinder X6 & my Bluetooth Microsoft Wedge can send at least six simultaneous keys back at once....
  • edited December 2013
    Korinel wrote: »
    I think MS make fab keyboards, in a quick test my Microsoft Sidewinder X6 & my Bluetooth Microsoft Wedge can send at least six simultaneous keys back at once....

    Me too. I've had MS keyboards for years now.

    Jon.
  • edited December 2013
    karingal wrote: »
    Is this the same keyboard they announced a couple of years ago?

    Won't believe it until it happens.

    It is indeed the same keyboard they announced a couple of years ago. It seems an odd thing to take to Kickstarter really - as they always talked about how much of a market they had generated through the downloadable apps -it suggests that they are uncertain what market is out there.

    I do feel that they have missed out on various opportunities - partly from announcing this so long ago. I did speak with Elite about the possibility of sharing the drawings and development of the new faceplates for example, but they said that they had decided to just go to one manufacturer who would produce complete units for them to sell on - so that means everything has been reverse engineered again. They also did not seem interested in providing any of the parts separately, which would have opened up the possibility of supplying spares to Speccy users (even if it was via a third party supplier such as myself) as the keyboard mats and faceplates would have proved more cost effective (due to numbers being produced)...

    Will they ever hit the market? Well I guess that they will, but I don't think it will be quick - a lot of feedback I have seen has been mainly people complaining that it is only aimed at iOS based emulators and not the Android (or heavens forbid) Windows market too...

    It will be interesting to see what happens
    Supporting Sinclairs since 1986 !

    www.rwapsoftware.co.uk
    www.sellmyretro.com
  • edited December 2013
    rwap wrote: »
    They also did not seem interested in providing any of the parts separately, which would have opened up the possibility of supplying spares to Speccy users (even if it was via a third party supplier such as myself) as the keyboard mats and faceplates would have proved more cost effective (due to numbers being produced)...

    If/when they decide on a manufacturer, perhaps they will share with you the details of that manufacturer and you can get some more added onto the back of their order. Undoubtedly they'll go to someone in China - I've only dealt with a couple of Chinese electronics manufacturers, but the ones I've dealt with seem to be pretty happy to deal with small volume customers like myself.

    There's also the possibility that what they make is just a Speccy lookalike but with all the internal parts (rubber mat, faceplate) subtly different and not usable on an original so I'd check what they are making does actually work if this is the case. (Personally I'd be interested in the complete case for the purposes of building clones - at that point I'm not entirely bothered where the screw fixings are or whether the keyboard matrix is even the same). Actually I suspect the Bluetooth keyboard version will probably be cheap enough I can just buy one and remove the Bluetooth stuff.
  • edited December 2013
    A little more reading and they say that the case is designed to be the same as the original in every aspect, apart from a small led to show bluetooth activity, and they have removed the hole for the expansion port....
    Supporting Sinclairs since 1986 !

    www.rwapsoftware.co.uk
    www.sellmyretro.com
  • edited December 2013
    That's nothing a dremel won't fix :)
    The Spectrum Resuscitation Thread - bringing dead Spectrums back to life
    zx-diagnostics - Fixing ZX Spectrums in the 21st Century (wiki)
    Sinclair FAQ Wiki
  • edited December 2013
    Winston wrote: »
    There's also the possibility that what they make is just a Speccy lookalike but with all the internal parts (rubber mat, faceplate) subtly different and not usable on an original

    Exactly.

    It will be essentially a fairly expensive bluetooth keyboard that only looks like a Spectrum. And there's no guarantee it will work on anything except for their own especially emulated games (called "Bluetooth ZX Spectrum apps") that you will need to buy separately. And you may even need to pay extra to use this keyboard with their already released "ZX Spectrum: Elite Collection" app.

    That's clearly mentioned in their Kickstarter page:
    "The recreated Sinclair ZX Spectrum will be a Bluetooth keyboard, initially for iOS and subsequently for Android and Windows phones and tablets (as well as for PCs and Macs), in the form-factor of a 48K Sinclair ZX Spectrum." [...] "By default, when used in conjunction with the simultaneously released and separately sold Bluetooth ZX Spectrum apps, available from the iTunes App Store and subsequently from the Google Play, Amazon App Store and Windows Store, the Bluetooth ZX Spectrum will provide authentic rubber-key play-control over a comprehensive catalogue of 100% original, officially licenced, paid-for Bluetooth ZX Spectrum games (and more) via a secure App Store environment. Either at launch or sometime later, the Bluetooth ZX Spectrum will also be 'backwardly compatible' with the existing and separately sold, 'ZX Spectrum: Elite Collection' apps, either by default or perhaps via an in-app purchase from within those apps."
    Creator of ZXDB, BIFROST/NIRVANA, ZX7/RCS, etc. I don't frequent this forum anymore, please look for me elsewhere.
  • edited December 2013
    rwap wrote: »
    A little more reading and they say that the case is designed to be the same as the original in every aspect, apart from a small led to show bluetooth activity, and they have removed the hole for the expansion port....

    The small print they probably miss out is "...in every external aspect". The insides are going to have to be different (the Bluetooth transceiver PCB is going to be smaller than a 48K board, need different fixings), I'd be very surprised if they use the same mat/membrane (especially membrane, given the difficulty in sourcing the single inline Molex connectors it used these days). If I were to bet, if we took one apart it would have a "calculator style" keyboard mat (one with little carbon nubs that make a contact on a PCB below) with the whole lot being integrated on that PCB.

    I'll definitely buy one if they come out, but basically for doing a teardown rather than using with an emulator :-) (And also to see what bits can be used with an original machine).

    I'm sure hackers will reverse engineer the protocol they use if they don't use whatever the Bluetooth equivalent is of USB HID. I wouldn't be surprised if Fuse got support for it :-)
  • edited December 2013
    They have plans to release it September 2014.
    http://bluetoothzxspectrum.elite-systems.co.uk/index.php


    Ah well....
    Anyway, if anybody has it, in future, I would be grateful for closer photos.
    ZX81/ZX Spectrum/Amiga/Atari music: http://yerzmyey.i-demo.pl/
  • edited December 2013
    I'd like to see it too, but from previous history I would be surprised if it actually comes to fruition. Especially given that this was first announced a couple of years ago as an imminent product, and now it's requiring a kickstarter to get going.

    I'd find it hard to believe also that it can be sold for between ?40-?50 given the economies of scale involved...

    B
    The Spectrum Resuscitation Thread - bringing dead Spectrums back to life
    zx-diagnostics - Fixing ZX Spectrums in the 21st Century (wiki)
    Sinclair FAQ Wiki
  • edited December 2013
    I'm currently a backer. I have to say, though, that it's one of the most poorly written, waffling and confusing pitches I've seen. The updates aren't any better. It seriously needs to be rewritten in "plain English".
  • edited December 2013
    Strident wrote: »
    I'm currently a backer. I have to say, though, that it's one of the most poorly written, waffling and confusing pitches I've seen. The updates aren't any better. It seriously needs to be rewritten in "plain English".

    Give Elite money. Elite make nice trinket. You get trinket. Give Elite money now. :)
  • edited January 2014
    Strident wrote: »
    I'm currently a backer. I have to say, though, that it's one of the most poorly written, waffling and confusing pitches I've seen. The updates aren't any better. It seriously needs to be rewritten in "plain English".

    Speaking of confusing - do you think the Bluetooth ZX Spectrum will be a generic keyboard? Do you think it will be possible to use the Bluetooth ZX Spectrum with other ZX Spectrum emulators? Or will it be tied to Elite's emulators?

    /Anders
  • edited January 2014
    Nobody knows.

    Logic says that they would use a device that works as a standard bluetooth HID to reduce the amount of development on the software side, but it's entirely possible that they wouldn't have the keys mapped logically but do whatever makes the hardware cheaper and remap the inputs appropriately in the emulator.

    You will have to either convince elite systems to tell you, or wait for the device to get funded and produced
  • edited January 2014
  • fogfog
    edited January 2014
    I'm gonna have a moan and say it's not the real thing.. and than everyone who buys one should own a real machine also ;)

    it's sweet / funny that 3 of my none speccy friends facebooked me the link to it 2+ weeks a bit late.

    who owns the IP for the original design now , I mean did it lapse or are sky the current owners? I know a few on here comment about such things.. so was surprised they hadn't already :)

    I can't see myself buying one, since like a few of you, I'm sure.. you have a real door wedge anyway :)
  • edited January 2014
    Far better would a an accessory you could plug into the back of the door wedge to give it 9v power of batteries, and the ability to send it's key presses via blue tooth.
  • edited January 2014
    fog wrote: »
    who owns the IP for the original design now , I mean did it lapse or are sky the current owners? I know a few on here comment about such things.. so was surprised they hadn't already :)

    The only IP left on the design is probably the trademarks. All the patents relating to the design have expired.
Sign In or Register to comment.