All political persuasions use scare stories and scapegoats, the pro-EU brigade are as bad if not worse...
i dont really see any pros, generally to me your either in...or your out, the only furore i see is people wanting out...because, mainly of the reasons i listed
Professional Mel-the-Bell Simulator................"So realistic, I found myself reaching for the Kleenex King-Size!" - Richard Darling
i dont really see any pros, generally to me your either in...or your out, the only furore i see is people wanting out...because, mainly of the reasons i listed
Dunno about that, we are constantly told how Britain will go bankrupt and no-one will trade with us if we leave the EU, then we are spoonfed the insulting thinly veiled racist nonsense about needing more immigration to replace the idle workshy freeloading Brits who haven't got a decent days work in them!
The lies, propaganda and spin comes from all directions!
Dunno about that, we are constantly told how Britain will go bankrupt and no-one will trade with us if we leave the EU, then we are spoonfed the insulting thinly veiled racist nonsense about needing more immigration to replace the idle workshy freeloading Brits who haven't got a decent days work in them!
The lies, propaganda and spin comes from all directions!
A - ive already asked yer mate weesam what will happen if we leave the EU, and got no response
and
B- certain business leaders NOT government HAVE said theyeve found certsin sections of britsin to be none employable and certain sections of foriegn labour to be good
Professional Mel-the-Bell Simulator................"So realistic, I found myself reaching for the Kleenex King-Size!" - Richard Darling
Only middle class Guardian reading liberals know whats best for this country apparently...
What an absolute insult to the thousands who died fighting for our freedom over the years!
And exactly how many times have you died in the name of freedom to presume to put words in the mouths of the fallen?
The hypocrisy of these liberal types defies logic, they're always blathering on about self-determination when it applies to someone else yet deny us that very same right!
You mention logic and hypocrisy in one of the most illogical and hypocritical sentences you've ever written. So the liberals are now the enemy to deny a voice?
Good luck to UKIP, I hope they do well and stick the proverbial 2 fingers up to the self-serving vermin that infests Westminster and the EU bureaucracy!
No, just ignorant of the benefits you're already enjoying and afraid of competition.
And exactly how many times have you died in the name of freedom to presume to put words in the mouths of the fallen?
You mention logic and hypocrisy in one of the most illogical and hypocritical sentences you've ever written. So the liberals are now the enemy to deny a voice?
And Farage is somehow superior?
wheres the like button lol
Professional Mel-the-Bell Simulator................"So realistic, I found myself reaching for the Kleenex King-Size!" - Richard Darling
I don't think anyone's seriously proposing that the UK would be doomed economically if it left the EU. However, it's hard to refute the idea that a large bloc of countries is going to do a heck of a lot better when it comes to international trade and diplomacy than any one of them acting individually.
Hence, it's worth pointing out that we would be throwing away something very tangible if we left, and we have to ask what benefit would we get out of doing so?
No, just ignorant of the benefits you're already enjoying and afraid of competition.
And exactly how many times have you died in the name of freedom to presume to put words in the mouths of the fallen?
You mention logic and hypocrisy in one of the most illogical and hypocritical sentences you've ever written. So the liberals are now the enemy to deny a voice?
And Farage is somehow superior?
Benefits I'm enjoying??? Lower wages, job insecurity? You'll have to enlighten me on that one!
Whereas I cant speak for the fallen, I can speak for those who survived the 2 world wars and their disgust in the thought of being in a political union with the Germans!
The so-called Liberals are on record as opposing an in/out referendum on EU membership i.e. in favour of denying the people a say on something so fundamental... Not very 'liberal' is it?
I'm no fan of Farage, I think he is a bit of a pillock, but he is far superior to any of the current Westminster clique!
certain business leaders NOT government HAVE said theyeve found certsin sections of britsin to be none employable and certain sections of foriegn labour to be good
Oh so that's ok then?
Imagine if these 'certain business leaders' started spouting similar rhetoric against women, immigrants or the disabled, the europhillic liberals would be the first to start squealing!
The so-called Liberals are on record as opposing an in/out referendum on EU membership i.e. in favour of denying the people a say on something so fundamental... Not very 'liberal' is it?
The Liberal Party supports the calls for a referendum to be held on the proposed new EU Constitution. The proposals contained in the Draft Constitution are inimical to the Liberal Party concept of a Commonwealth of Europe.
If The People vote "no" to the EU Constitution, that will be taken as a mandate to leave the EU, not as a mandate to leave the EU Constitution as it is.
If The People vote "no" to the EU Constitution, that will be taken as a mandate to leave the EU, not as a mandate to leave the EU Constitution as it is.
So where is this referendum?
Tories promised it this session of parliament and the Liberals apparently endorse it...
Still waiting!
Labour will probably get in next year with the Liberals help and subject us to another 5 years of denial.
Hope theres a revolution or military coup to depose these cretins!
Lets all label other people, tell them their motivations, and then criticise them for being what we labelled them and for having the motivations we said they did.
Isn't politics fun \o/
Benefits I'm enjoying??? Lower wages, job insecurity? You'll have to enlighten me on that one!
Whereas I cant speak for the fallen, I can speak for those who survived the 2 world wars and their disgust in the thought of being in a political union with the Germans!
/QUOTE]
lmao you really are living in some weird dreamland, if you havent noticed the wars over, the world has moved on, we are on friendly with those pesky Germans now, have been for a while now, lol
Professional Mel-the-Bell Simulator................"So realistic, I found myself reaching for the Kleenex King-Size!" - Richard Darling
If The People vote "no" to the EU Constitution, that will be taken as a mandate to leave the EU, not as a mandate to leave the EU Constitution as it is.
That's all well and good, but there is no EU Constitution, just a series of intergovernmental treaties. The fact that it bit the dust a while back, along with any need for a referendum on it, seems to have been lost on a lot of people.
The referendum that the Conservatives and Lib Dems are offering, and Labour would be unwise to back out of, is an entirely different in/out referendum.
lmao you really are living in some weird dreamland, if you havent noticed the wars over, the world has moved on, we are on friendly with those pesky Germans now, have been for a while now, lol
Not that I condone it, but I think you'll find anti-German sentiment is rife throughout sections of the EU population.
Dunno about that, we are constantly told how Britain will go bankrupt and no-one will trade with us if we leave the EU
Yes, that's because the tax waivers we enjoy will be lost; everyone will have to pay import duties on anything shipped between the UK and the rest of Europe. That will certainly fudge up my use of eBay and will put a massive whack on what you pay in the supermarket. That's even before businesses who trade in Europe go under and every British citizen working abroad comes home unemployed.
then we are spoonfed the insulting thinly veiled racist nonsense about needing more immigration to replace the idle workshy freeloading Brits who haven't got a decent days work in them!
Who is that insulting? Insulting to someone sitting at home on benefits when seasonal jobs on the land are going to European migrants? Tough. If you don't want foreigners taking British jobs then get off your backside and demonstrate that locals can do them better.
We do need reform after years of left-wing benefit free-for-alls, and they do need to be fairer on the genuinely incapacitated than ATOS have so far managed, and there does need to be a re-balance so that small amounts of earned income don't make people worse off, but it also means that people without particular skills to offer either need to attain some skills or they need to take whatever work is going.
tell me what you vote for in your little bit of the world then
You ought to be voting for the person you think will represent your area best. You only get to vote for your MP and should vote for the one you actually want, not worry about what colour tie he wears. If you vote for Blandy McNo-policies then moan for the next five years that the gubmint don't care about your region or your problems.
The media also needs to stop using the phrase "rogue backbenchers" for MPs who use their votes instead of doing what they're told and keeping seats warm.
In theory you vote for the person but, seeing as most MPs are in the two main parties, that's effectively what you're voting for.
Er, that's only because people have voted for them. It's not like there's any shortage of candidates. Of course if everyone always votes for the blue or the red tie then there'll be more partisan MPs
Whereas I cant speak for the fallen, I can speak for those who survived the 2 world wars and their disgust in the thought of being in a political union with the Germans!
In other words, elderly set-in-their-ways bigots who despise the German people because they were (somewhat understandably) conditioned to believe Germans were the enemy and all deserved to be destroyed in "total war".
In other words, elderly set-in-their-ways bigots who despise the German people because they were (somewhat understandably) conditioned to believe Germans were the enemy and all deserved to be destroyed in "total war".
This is a rather blunt way of stating it but it does happen. Although I notice it more in the youths of the war rather than those who fought. Lets not forget there are those veterans who have trotted off to Germany for reunions of their battles with all sides present. Spike Milligan famously quotes a letter he received following one such meeting from a Wehrmacht Veteran from El Alamein: "Dear Spike, great to finally meet you, sorry I missed you in 1942!"
Personally I have the utmost respect for the survivors of that conflict that I have met, and prefer to think they and their mates gave it all for the freedom to decide for ourselves and sit outside a pub and argue the toss with them till the cows come home. One of the things they can be most proud of is that there is freedom in Germany to do the same.
But this is all horsesh*t, like the Americans who try to say if you don't think they should be out invading every country under the sun then you must therefore hate the troops, which is one of the most insidious lies any politician could ever tell when lives are at stake. Raking up what people may or may not have died for is another desperate argument of those with no rational reason left.
I personally think we should vote for people who then take these decisions for us on the best of their knowledge. I don't presume I know better than every single person in government what's best for this country. If we had a referendum on Europe, right now, the result would be hugely biased by the fear and prejudice of the ill-informed. What I'd like is for our politicians to actually engage with the population and explain what's going on, instead of either agitating prejudices or avoiding the subject with prepared media-friendly meaningless statements.
Politics in Britain have become a cosy dialogue between the Politicians and the media; the people themselves hardly factor into it unless they're in some way embarrassing enough to be laughed at. The only thing I will say in favour of Farage is that at least he has the balls to speak out for himself instead of hiding behind a press office.
Lets not forget there are those veterans who have trotted off to Germany for reunions of their battles with all sides present.
Well the veterans who fought or were captured by the enemy found that the German people were a reasonable lot! Its the people back on the "Home Front" being fed the propaganda I guess more likely to treat Germans as evil bogeymen.
I think it's entirely true that any sort of remote warfare has a dehumanizing effect. In the sense that; if you can lob arrows or bullets or bombs or rockets at an enemy and never have to meet them up close, they are just numbers of enemy casualties which makes it much easier to separate from the idea of murdering people.
If an enemy military power flattens one of your cities killing large numbers of civilians then it's very easy to turn round and do the same thing and tell yourself they had it coming to them, and that because it's "total war" the people building the planes or feeding the soldiers are all equally responsible. (I know this is a gross oversimplification of history :lol:)
Er, that's only because people have voted for them. It's not like there's any shortage of candidates. Of course if everyone always votes for the blue or the red tie then there'll be more partisan MPs
Sure, but given the first-past-the-post system, a vote for anyone other than the major parties is unlikely to achieve anything except in a handful of constituencies.
I personally think we should vote for people who then take these decisions for us on the best of their knowledge. I don't presume I know better than every single person in government what's best for this country. If we had a referendum on Europe, right now, the result would be hugely biased by the fear and prejudice of the ill-informed.
"Think about the average person for a moment. Now consider half the population are dumber than that!"
It's a bit of a silly quote, but it highlights an important problem with any democracy. That is that human beings are often quite stupid, selfish and shortsighted.
That's not meant to be an insult. As a human being I include myself in that. I'm not a political expert, I don't understand the benefits or the downsides to being in the EU etc well enough to make an informed decision on which is best. Or foreign policy, monetary policy, health, education.
Hands up who here genuinely thinks they could singlehandedly run a country better than any of the recent governments. Before your answer consider the things that happen while you are in power. Industrial strikes, a foreign oil crisis, terrorist bombings, a global financial collapse, etc. Would you get everything right? Would the whole population be happy with how you handled it? Would your response be a quick fix with long term consequences, or make things worse before they got better?
If you still have your hand up then unfortunately you've still lost as you're a deluded idiot and it would be terribly dangerous to hand unilateral power over to you :lol:
If a political candidate, or a party manifesto feeds me a load of promises should I vote for it? Are they just making stuff up to get my vote?
Maybe I don't like Germans, or Poles, or Homosexuals, or women, or redheads, or people who collect Commodore 64s.
If 80% of the population feel the same way should a government change policies accordingly because that's what most people want, or should it work to protect the minority which would be unpopular? Your answer may change depending on whether you are in the majority or the minority, that's pretty normal behaviour too, but it highlights another problem with democracy which is known as the Tyranny of the Majority. In other words, if you put everything to a vote then the minorities will always lose.
"Two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner" seems fair until the day you are the sheep. And to bring this back on topic a bit, the day you find that you're the sheep you think "hey, maybe those conventions on human rights aren't so bad after all." and you head off to the european courts to abuse them to get your own way despite the law and popular opinion being in favour of mint sauce.
Sure, but given the first-past-the-post system, a vote for anyone other than the major parties is unlikely to achieve anything except in a handful of constituencies.
If you vote for Red or Blue rather than for the candidate you want then you (along with everyone else doing the same thing) are the reason that it's so unlikely for an independent candidate to achieve anything!
When it comes to the split within the house I know it's easy to forget that the current government isn't the conservative party :lol:
What's a shame is that after this coalition government people will go "well that went badly, I'd better vote for Red/Blue next time" rather than serving to remind people that one party doesn't have to win and that if lots of constituencies elect independent (or minority party which may as well be the same thing at this point) candidates then the house will be split up even further ever reducing the voting power of the major parties.
If you vote for Red or Blue rather than for the candidate you want then you (along with everyone else doing the same thing) are the reason that it's so unlikely for an independent candidate to achieve anything!
Sure, but my point is that the system doesn't help. If we want to see more minor parties in government, a change to proportional voting would be a big help. As it stands, UKIP might get something like 15% of the vote but not pick up a single seat; that's all well and good if you can't stand them, and I think I've made my opinion clear on that, but it's hardly an advert for democracy that such a well supported party could get shut out of Westminster entirely.
Individual independents have virtually no chance; about the only ones I can remember getting in within my lifetime were either anti-sleeze candidates or mainstream candidates who'd been de-selected by their parties.
When it comes to the split within the house I know it's easy to forget that the current government isn't the conservative party :lol:
What's a shame is that after this coalition government people will go "well that went badly, I'd better vote for Red/Blue next time" rather than serving to remind people that one party doesn't have to win and that if lots of constituencies elect independent (or minority party which may as well be the same thing at this point) candidates then the house will be split up even further ever reducing the voting power of the major parties.
Yes, but it doesn't really help that the minor parties and independents generally have an even worse, or at least considerably less plausible, set of policies than the major parties. We've all seen what happened when the Liberal Democrat manifesto made contact with reality and theirs was among the most realistic and attractive.
In many ways it seems simpler to just stick with the devil(s) you know, and Labour and the Tories seem the least worst options for running the country that we're likely to have on offer.
Comments
Dunno about that, we are constantly told how Britain will go bankrupt and no-one will trade with us if we leave the EU, then we are spoonfed the insulting thinly veiled racist nonsense about needing more immigration to replace the idle workshy freeloading Brits who haven't got a decent days work in them!
The lies, propaganda and spin comes from all directions!
and
B- certain business leaders NOT government HAVE said theyeve found certsin sections of britsin to be none employable and certain sections of foriegn labour to be good
And exactly how many times have you died in the name of freedom to presume to put words in the mouths of the fallen?
You mention logic and hypocrisy in one of the most illogical and hypocritical sentences you've ever written. So the liberals are now the enemy to deny a voice?
And Farage is somehow superior?
- IONIAN-GAMES.com -
wheres the like button lol
Hence, it's worth pointing out that we would be throwing away something very tangible if we left, and we have to ask what benefit would we get out of doing so?
Benefits I'm enjoying??? Lower wages, job insecurity? You'll have to enlighten me on that one!
Whereas I cant speak for the fallen, I can speak for those who survived the 2 world wars and their disgust in the thought of being in a political union with the Germans!
The so-called Liberals are on record as opposing an in/out referendum on EU membership i.e. in favour of denying the people a say on something so fundamental... Not very 'liberal' is it?
I'm no fan of Farage, I think he is a bit of a pillock, but he is far superior to any of the current Westminster clique!
Oh so that's ok then?
Imagine if these 'certain business leaders' started spouting similar rhetoric against women, immigrants or the disabled, the europhillic liberals would be the first to start squealing!
If The People vote "no" to the EU Constitution, that will be taken as a mandate to leave the EU, not as a mandate to leave the EU Constitution as it is.
So where is this referendum?
Tories promised it this session of parliament and the Liberals apparently endorse it...
Still waiting!
Labour will probably get in next year with the Liberals help and subject us to another 5 years of denial.
Hope theres a revolution or military coup to depose these cretins!
Isn't politics fun \o/
That's all well and good, but there is no EU Constitution, just a series of intergovernmental treaties. The fact that it bit the dust a while back, along with any need for a referendum on it, seems to have been lost on a lot of people.
The referendum that the Conservatives and Lib Dems are offering, and Labour would be unwise to back out of, is an entirely different in/out referendum.
Not that I condone it, but I think you'll find anti-German sentiment is rife throughout sections of the EU population.
Not with Farage though, as he married one.
if we back out of the EU does he have to give her back?
I doubt it, but it might limit his ability to have flings with Latvian mistresses.
Yes, that's because the tax waivers we enjoy will be lost; everyone will have to pay import duties on anything shipped between the UK and the rest of Europe. That will certainly fudge up my use of eBay and will put a massive whack on what you pay in the supermarket. That's even before businesses who trade in Europe go under and every British citizen working abroad comes home unemployed.
Who is that insulting? Insulting to someone sitting at home on benefits when seasonal jobs on the land are going to European migrants? Tough. If you don't want foreigners taking British jobs then get off your backside and demonstrate that locals can do them better.
We do need reform after years of left-wing benefit free-for-alls, and they do need to be fairer on the genuinely incapacitated than ATOS have so far managed, and there does need to be a re-balance so that small amounts of earned income don't make people worse off, but it also means that people without particular skills to offer either need to attain some skills or they need to take whatever work is going.
- IONIAN-GAMES.com -
Personally, I'd probably look at swapping my British passport for a Dutch one.... or a Scottish one. ;-)
You ought to be voting for the person you think will represent your area best. You only get to vote for your MP and should vote for the one you actually want, not worry about what colour tie he wears. If you vote for Blandy McNo-policies then moan for the next five years that the gubmint don't care about your region or your problems.
The media also needs to stop using the phrase "rogue backbenchers" for MPs who use their votes instead of doing what they're told and keeping seats warm.
Er, that's only because people have voted for them. It's not like there's any shortage of candidates. Of course if everyone always votes for the blue or the red tie then there'll be more partisan MPs
In other words, elderly set-in-their-ways bigots who despise the German people because they were (somewhat understandably) conditioned to believe Germans were the enemy and all deserved to be destroyed in "total war".
Personally I have the utmost respect for the survivors of that conflict that I have met, and prefer to think they and their mates gave it all for the freedom to decide for ourselves and sit outside a pub and argue the toss with them till the cows come home. One of the things they can be most proud of is that there is freedom in Germany to do the same.
But this is all horsesh*t, like the Americans who try to say if you don't think they should be out invading every country under the sun then you must therefore hate the troops, which is one of the most insidious lies any politician could ever tell when lives are at stake. Raking up what people may or may not have died for is another desperate argument of those with no rational reason left.
I personally think we should vote for people who then take these decisions for us on the best of their knowledge. I don't presume I know better than every single person in government what's best for this country. If we had a referendum on Europe, right now, the result would be hugely biased by the fear and prejudice of the ill-informed. What I'd like is for our politicians to actually engage with the population and explain what's going on, instead of either agitating prejudices or avoiding the subject with prepared media-friendly meaningless statements.
Politics in Britain have become a cosy dialogue between the Politicians and the media; the people themselves hardly factor into it unless they're in some way embarrassing enough to be laughed at. The only thing I will say in favour of Farage is that at least he has the balls to speak out for himself instead of hiding behind a press office.
- IONIAN-GAMES.com -
Well the veterans who fought or were captured by the enemy found that the German people were a reasonable lot! Its the people back on the "Home Front" being fed the propaganda I guess more likely to treat Germans as evil bogeymen.
I think it's entirely true that any sort of remote warfare has a dehumanizing effect. In the sense that; if you can lob arrows or bullets or bombs or rockets at an enemy and never have to meet them up close, they are just numbers of enemy casualties which makes it much easier to separate from the idea of murdering people.
If an enemy military power flattens one of your cities killing large numbers of civilians then it's very easy to turn round and do the same thing and tell yourself they had it coming to them, and that because it's "total war" the people building the planes or feeding the soldiers are all equally responsible. (I know this is a gross oversimplification of history :lol:)
Sure, but given the first-past-the-post system, a vote for anyone other than the major parties is unlikely to achieve anything except in a handful of constituencies.
"Think about the average person for a moment. Now consider half the population are dumber than that!"
It's a bit of a silly quote, but it highlights an important problem with any democracy. That is that human beings are often quite stupid, selfish and shortsighted.
That's not meant to be an insult. As a human being I include myself in that. I'm not a political expert, I don't understand the benefits or the downsides to being in the EU etc well enough to make an informed decision on which is best. Or foreign policy, monetary policy, health, education.
Hands up who here genuinely thinks they could singlehandedly run a country better than any of the recent governments. Before your answer consider the things that happen while you are in power. Industrial strikes, a foreign oil crisis, terrorist bombings, a global financial collapse, etc. Would you get everything right? Would the whole population be happy with how you handled it? Would your response be a quick fix with long term consequences, or make things worse before they got better?
If you still have your hand up then unfortunately you've still lost as you're a deluded idiot and it would be terribly dangerous to hand unilateral power over to you :lol:
If a political candidate, or a party manifesto feeds me a load of promises should I vote for it? Are they just making stuff up to get my vote?
Maybe I don't like Germans, or Poles, or Homosexuals, or women, or redheads, or people who collect Commodore 64s.
If 80% of the population feel the same way should a government change policies accordingly because that's what most people want, or should it work to protect the minority which would be unpopular? Your answer may change depending on whether you are in the majority or the minority, that's pretty normal behaviour too, but it highlights another problem with democracy which is known as the Tyranny of the Majority. In other words, if you put everything to a vote then the minorities will always lose.
"Two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner" seems fair until the day you are the sheep. And to bring this back on topic a bit, the day you find that you're the sheep you think "hey, maybe those conventions on human rights aren't so bad after all." and you head off to the european courts to abuse them to get your own way despite the law and popular opinion being in favour of mint sauce.
If you vote for Red or Blue rather than for the candidate you want then you (along with everyone else doing the same thing) are the reason that it's so unlikely for an independent candidate to achieve anything!
When it comes to the split within the house I know it's easy to forget that the current government isn't the conservative party :lol:
What's a shame is that after this coalition government people will go "well that went badly, I'd better vote for Red/Blue next time" rather than serving to remind people that one party doesn't have to win and that if lots of constituencies elect independent (or minority party which may as well be the same thing at this point) candidates then the house will be split up even further ever reducing the voting power of the major parties.
Sure, but my point is that the system doesn't help. If we want to see more minor parties in government, a change to proportional voting would be a big help. As it stands, UKIP might get something like 15% of the vote but not pick up a single seat; that's all well and good if you can't stand them, and I think I've made my opinion clear on that, but it's hardly an advert for democracy that such a well supported party could get shut out of Westminster entirely.
Individual independents have virtually no chance; about the only ones I can remember getting in within my lifetime were either anti-sleeze candidates or mainstream candidates who'd been de-selected by their parties.
Yes, but it doesn't really help that the minor parties and independents generally have an even worse, or at least considerably less plausible, set of policies than the major parties. We've all seen what happened when the Liberal Democrat manifesto made contact with reality and theirs was among the most realistic and attractive.
In many ways it seems simpler to just stick with the devil(s) you know, and Labour and the Tories seem the least worst options for running the country that we're likely to have on offer.