The referendum includes those ex-pats living in the EU who are enjoying the benefits of living and working in the EU. The UK votes to leave the EU, but the ex-pat votes are just enough to swing the vote for the UK to remain in the EU, against the will of the majority of those who live in the UK.
You mean like ex-pats have always been able to? By restricting the vote, you have restricted the debate and influenced the result.
Withdrawal from the European Union is a right of European Union (EU) member states under Treaty on European Union (Article 50): "Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements."
And Scotland has the right to secede from the UK, by popular vote, according to the referendum agreement signed by the UK and Scottish government.
The point is that in any democracy, any particular area within that political region must be governed by consent, which must include the ability to leave that political grouping if the people of that area feel that the central authority is not representing them properly. If that is not possible, then it is not a true democracy.
Even without a formal referendum agreement, the regions of England could separate from the rest of England if they could build up sufficient momentum, hold a vote and get a majority. That is what makes England, England! It is a democracy where every region is governed by consent. The same principle applies to Scotland and, indeed, every true democracy.
You mean like ex-pats have always been able to? By restricting the vote, you have restricted the debate and influenced the result.
Drawing the line is always a difficult point.
But I think the key stakeholders in any election are those who live there and feel, first-hand, the results of the policies enacted.
The ex-pats are the lucky ones. They have skills in demand and can leave to mitigate the lack of opportunities they have at home. As I have done, at various times, but I want opportunities here for the next generation so that they are less likely to have to leave.
Let us imagine an (extreme) hypothetical scenario. There's a UK-wide vote on Scottish independence. 100% of Scottish voters vote to leave, but are easily outnumbered by the votes of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland then stays in the union against its will.
Would you feel comfortable with that situation?
Just like the TV vote ITV did back in the 90s? The one where the phone lines were so overloaded most of Scotland couldn't get through and the result was England voting for union, Scotland (those who were able to vote) voting to leave. The final result? Union won.
Oh, no. Every time you turn up something monumental and terrible happens.
I don’t think I have the stomach for it.
--Raziel (Legend of Kain: Soul Reaver 2)
What opportunities? The yes campaign is based on what oil prices may or may not be in 20yrs (and when the oil runs out, Scotland has a massive bill to remove the equipment). Woohoo.
Transporting anything to Scotland becomes an export. Which adds costs. (Even supplying the trains which are mostly built in the UK)
Scotlands credit rating will be ruined. Salmond has said he will reject any share of the UK's debt - which he can't and it won't happen. Either way, Scotland won't be able to enter the EU so you really are on your own.
The rest of the UK will inherit membership to the EU, UN, Nato, etc, as they form 90% of the population, whilst Scotland will have to apply - and possibly be rejected.
And that's before we've even started on currency, banking, etc...
And services such as the post office (which has *never* made a profit in Scotland - a first class stamp will cost you nearly ?1 for your post office to break even)
How long before Scotland goes bankrupt with no support?
Let us imagine an (extreme) hypothetical scenario. There's a UK-wide vote on Scottish independence. 100% of Scottish voters vote to leave, but are easily outnumbered by the votes of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland then stays in the union against its will.
Would you feel comfortable with that situation?
If a significant majority want to go then that's fine. 50/50 is just asking for trouble though. If Scotland leaves with a close vote then it will start out as a divided nation on top of all the other issues it will have to deal with.
I'm just stating how I 'feel' about it here. I have no power to change it, but it does feel like a relationship where my partner is undecided about leaving and is talking to everybody she knows about it and discussing it in public. She'll decide in the end regardless of how good or bad the advice that she receives is and I have no say in it whatsoever :(
I hope Scotland stays, But Alex Salmond has already clarified his 'once in a generation chance' statement to mean 'We want to vote on this every 15 years until we get a yes'.
And on that subject, next time (assuming the Scottish people avoid a terrible mistake this time) the question should be "Do you want to stay in the union" or something similar where the positive, yes, choice is swapped around. The better together campaign has been accused of being negative. If it's Yes to stay next time, maybe the nationalists will have a harder time making a positive case.
That might sound like a small point, but it really isn't. Use of words in the right place and context is very powerful. NLP is based on it as are other systems.
Either way, Scotland won't be able to enter the EU so you really are on your own.
The rest of the UK will inherit membership to the EU, UN, Nato, etc, as they form 90% of the population, whilst Scotland will have to apply - and possibly be rejected.
So you are saying we won't be able to enter the EU and we can apply to be in there and possibly be rejected?
You should be a politician with non answers like that :p
Oh, no. Every time you turn up something monumental and terrible happens.
I don’t think I have the stomach for it.
--Raziel (Legend of Kain: Soul Reaver 2)
Does it really matter at this point? Won't everyone who cares have voted by now?
To save making enemies of each other we should all just talk about sheds instead :D
I'm just stating how I 'feel' about it here. I have no power to change it, but it does feel like a relationship where my partner is undecided about leaving and is talking to everybody she knows about it and discussing it in public. She'll decide in the end regardless of how good or bad the advice that she receives is and I have no say in it whatsoever :(
I hope Scotland stays, But Alex Salmond has already clarified his 'once in a generation chance' statement to mean 'We want to vote on this every 15 years until we get a yes'.
If (God forbid) your partner did want to leave, would you force them to stay? My guess is that you wouldn't because you respect their right to self-determination and understand the folly of trying to force an unwilling partner to stay.
Regarding the once in a generation thing, he has already stated that he wouldn't expect another referendum for 18 years. Under the Good Friday agreement, Northern Ireland can call a referendum for a united Ireland every 7 years, but it doesn't mean that they do.
If there is a reasonable demand for secession, then it is fair to put it to the vote. Democracy!
If (God forbid) your partner did want to leave, would you force them to stay? My guess is that you wouldn't because you respect their right to self-determination and understand the folly of trying to force an unwilling partner to stay.
What opportunities? The yes campaign is based on what oil prices may or may not be in 20yrs (and when the oil runs out, Scotland has a massive bill to remove the equipment). Woohoo.
Transporting anything to Scotland becomes an export. Which adds costs. (Even supplying the trains which are mostly built in the UK)
Scotlands credit rating will be ruined. Salmond has said he will reject any share of the UK's debt - which he can't and it won't happen. Either way, Scotland won't be able to enter the EU so you really are on your own.
The rest of the UK will inherit membership to the EU, UN, Nato, etc, as they form 90% of the population, whilst Scotland will have to apply - and possibly be rejected.
And that's before we've even started on currency, banking, etc...
And services such as the post office (which has *never* made a profit in Scotland - a first class stamp will cost you nearly ?1 for your post office to break even)
How long before Scotland goes bankrupt with no support?
I don't know where you live, but here the campaign has been about so much more than oil and money. Oil is a good percentage of the economy but by no means all of it.
Yes, if there is no currency union then there will be added costs.
As you say, the remainder of the UK would be the successor state as regards to international bodies. It would also be the "successor state" for the UK treasury's national debt.
The SNP negotiating plan is to accept a share of that national debt in exchange for a formal currency union. A literal quid pro quo!
If not, they can refuse to accept a share of that debt. Would it damage Scotland's credit rating? Yes. It would lead to a higher interest rate until such times that Scotland has established itself. But Scotland wouldn't have to pay that upfront debt. Really, it is in both our interests to make a deal and is the most likely scenario.
In terms of entry to the various bodies, outright rejection is unlikely. Will there have to be certain compromises required to enter the EU, NATO, etc? Probably.
Basically, you suggest that an overall calamity is the likely outcome. It is one possibility, but it is very unlikely. The vast majority of the campaigners from both sides have stated that they believe Scotland would be able to run its own affairs in a reasonable manner.
no, but Ireland is in the EU.. but well pally with the UK they have their own treaty (hence why i never showed a passport as a UK citizen as a kid) . if Scotland goes alone they aren't in the EU.. doesn't really matter to ireland as after going there 1-2 years ago, a LOT of folk are going abroad for work. mainly oz and canada.
the republic of ireland and northern ireland are treated as separate countries e.g. tax etc.
no, but Ireland is in the EU.. but well pally with the UK they have their own treaty (hence why i never showed a passport as a UK citizen as a kid) . if Scotland goes alone they aren't in the EU.. doesn't really matter to ireland as after going there 1-2 years ago, a LOT of folk are going abroad for work. mainly oz and canada.
the republic of ireland and northern ireland are treated as separate countries e.g. tax etc.
Movement between the Republic of Ireland and the UK is governed by the Common Travel Area which predates the EU's freedom of movement regulations.
Similarly they had working rights predating the EU single market, that someone more expert on Anglo-Irish treaties than me would have to comment on.
Fair enough. So, one half of you likes drinking and fighting, and the other half...er...
(Oh crap, sorry, now I'm at it! ;) )
Anyone who makes fun of the Scottish or Irish for drinking and fighting obviously hasn't noticed the demonstrations of Anglo-Saxon pugilism in town centres up and down the country at night or is a hypocrite anyway. ;)
Anyone who makes fun of the Scottish or Irish for drinking and fighting obviously hasn't noticed the demonstrations of Anglo-Saxon pugilism in town centres up and down the country at night or is a hypocrite anyway. ;)
Movement between the Republic of Ireland and the UK is governed by the Common Travel Area which predates the EU's freedom of movement regulations.
Similarly they had working rights predating the EU single market, that someone more expert on Anglo-Irish treaties than me would have to comment on.
But are those rights in place now between Scotland and the rest of the UK AFTER they 'separate'?
If not, in the immediate, anyone in that situation...living just across the border and working on the other side of it...might have a problem come Monday morning.
You're effectively an illegal worker from a foreign non EU country. Like here, someone crossing the border from Mexico to work in South Texas is an illegal worker.
If not, in the immediate, anyone in that situation...living just across the border and working on the other side of it...might have a problem come Monday morning.
Scotland isn't just going to suddenly be an independent state next week and a barbed wire fence go up with no warning. :lol:
Comments
Just joking of course...though I did skip over the danger mouse is coming back bS!! I didn't like it first time around.
You wouldn't need an election. You could just ask him outright. ;-)
You mean like ex-pats have always been able to? By restricting the vote, you have restricted the debate and influenced the result.
Also an interesting point.
There's are some great intelligently thought out views on here.
And Scotland has the right to secede from the UK, by popular vote, according to the referendum agreement signed by the UK and Scottish government.
The point is that in any democracy, any particular area within that political region must be governed by consent, which must include the ability to leave that political grouping if the people of that area feel that the central authority is not representing them properly. If that is not possible, then it is not a true democracy.
Even without a formal referendum agreement, the regions of England could separate from the rest of England if they could build up sufficient momentum, hold a vote and get a majority. That is what makes England, England! It is a democracy where every region is governed by consent. The same principle applies to Scotland and, indeed, every true democracy.
Drawing the line is always a difficult point.
But I think the key stakeholders in any election are those who live there and feel, first-hand, the results of the policies enacted.
The ex-pats are the lucky ones. They have skills in demand and can leave to mitigate the lack of opportunities they have at home. As I have done, at various times, but I want opportunities here for the next generation so that they are less likely to have to leave.
I don’t think I have the stomach for it.
--Raziel (Legend of Kain: Soul Reaver 2)
https://www.youtube.com/user/VincentTSFP
Transporting anything to Scotland becomes an export. Which adds costs. (Even supplying the trains which are mostly built in the UK)
Scotlands credit rating will be ruined. Salmond has said he will reject any share of the UK's debt - which he can't and it won't happen. Either way, Scotland won't be able to enter the EU so you really are on your own.
The rest of the UK will inherit membership to the EU, UN, Nato, etc, as they form 90% of the population, whilst Scotland will have to apply - and possibly be rejected.
And that's before we've even started on currency, banking, etc...
And services such as the post office (which has *never* made a profit in Scotland - a first class stamp will cost you nearly ?1 for your post office to break even)
How long before Scotland goes bankrupt with no support?
I'm just stating how I 'feel' about it here. I have no power to change it, but it does feel like a relationship where my partner is undecided about leaving and is talking to everybody she knows about it and discussing it in public. She'll decide in the end regardless of how good or bad the advice that she receives is and I have no say in it whatsoever :(
I hope Scotland stays, But Alex Salmond has already clarified his 'once in a generation chance' statement to mean 'We want to vote on this every 15 years until we get a yes'.
And on that subject, next time (assuming the Scottish people avoid a terrible mistake this time) the question should be "Do you want to stay in the union" or something similar where the positive, yes, choice is swapped around. The better together campaign has been accused of being negative. If it's Yes to stay next time, maybe the nationalists will have a harder time making a positive case.
That might sound like a small point, but it really isn't. Use of words in the right place and context is very powerful. NLP is based on it as are other systems.
You should be a politician with non answers like that :p
I don’t think I have the stomach for it.
--Raziel (Legend of Kain: Soul Reaver 2)
https://www.youtube.com/user/VincentTSFP
To put it another way...
You won't have automatic membership. You can apply. Your credit rating isn't good enough so you get rejected.
To save making enemies of each other we should all just talk about sheds instead :D
Well i certainly do, i'd love to stay up but will be sound asleep by the time the results start to come in.
You live in Scotland but work across the border in England...Do you have to apply for a work visa?
Ask Again Later
If (God forbid) your partner did want to leave, would you force them to stay? My guess is that you wouldn't because you respect their right to self-determination and understand the folly of trying to force an unwilling partner to stay.
Regarding the once in a generation thing, he has already stated that he wouldn't expect another referendum for 18 years. Under the Good Friday agreement, Northern Ireland can call a referendum for a united Ireland every 7 years, but it doesn't mean that they do.
If there is a reasonable demand for secession, then it is fair to put it to the vote. Democracy!
That's one of the many uses of chloroform....
I don't know where you live, but here the campaign has been about so much more than oil and money. Oil is a good percentage of the economy but by no means all of it.
Yes, if there is no currency union then there will be added costs.
As you say, the remainder of the UK would be the successor state as regards to international bodies. It would also be the "successor state" for the UK treasury's national debt.
The SNP negotiating plan is to accept a share of that national debt in exchange for a formal currency union. A literal quid pro quo!
If not, they can refuse to accept a share of that debt. Would it damage Scotland's credit rating? Yes. It would lead to a higher interest rate until such times that Scotland has established itself. But Scotland wouldn't have to pay that upfront debt. Really, it is in both our interests to make a deal and is the most likely scenario.
In terms of entry to the various bodies, outright rejection is unlikely. Will there have to be certain compromises required to enter the EU, NATO, etc? Probably.
Basically, you suggest that an overall calamity is the likely outcome. It is one possibility, but it is very unlikely. The vast majority of the campaigners from both sides have stated that they believe Scotland would be able to run its own affairs in a reasonable manner.
Sensible scenario #35.
You live in the Republic of Ireland but work in England...Do you have to apply for a work visa?
the republic of ireland and northern ireland are treated as separate countries e.g. tax etc.
Fair enough. So, one half of you likes drinking and fighting, and the other half...er...
(Oh crap, sorry, now I'm at it! ;) )
Movement between the Republic of Ireland and the UK is governed by the Common Travel Area which predates the EU's freedom of movement regulations.
Similarly they had working rights predating the EU single market, that someone more expert on Anglo-Irish treaties than me would have to comment on.
Anyone who makes fun of the Scottish or Irish for drinking and fighting obviously hasn't noticed the demonstrations of Anglo-Saxon pugilism in town centres up and down the country at night or is a hypocrite anyway. ;)
But are those rights in place now between Scotland and the rest of the UK AFTER they 'separate'?
If not, in the immediate, anyone in that situation...living just across the border and working on the other side of it...might have a problem come Monday morning.
You're effectively an illegal worker from a foreign non EU country. Like here, someone crossing the border from Mexico to work in South Texas is an illegal worker.
Scotland isn't just going to suddenly be an independent state next week and a barbed wire fence go up with no warning. :lol:
Probably would have been a good idea to have a plan in place FIRST :lol:
No need, they already have Hadrian's wall :lol:
Any one know where I can buy shares in a barbed wire company :lol::lol: