The script and graphics can be compressed.
It still has to be multi-load though,
I played monkey island years ago, so Im not sure of the structure of the game, like at some point is it impossible to go back to previous locations?
I played it in a 8086 back in the day and it required 7 double-sided disks (740kb, not those fancy new double density disks heh). If I recall correctly it wasn't completely lineal requiring "old" disks further on in the game.
A straight conversion would look very bad. The graphic style cannot be reproduced on the Spectrum screen. If the graphics were redrawn it could work well.
at some point is it impossible to go back to previous locations?
If its possible to visit any location at any time, maybe the multi load could happen when you access the island travel map.
I played it a couple of years ago on XBLA and from what I remember you can pretty much revisit any location when you want. Although if there's no reason to go back there story wise then I guess you can block it off.
Oh, no. Every time you turn up something monumental and terrible happens.
I don’t think I have the stomach for it.
--Raziel (Legend of Kain: Soul Reaver 2)
The game is split into two parts - once you sail off on the ship halfway through, you don't come back to the first part.
But within each part, you can go anywhere.
It's more than two parts really, although a lot of locations are reused between them. It'd still be a squeeze on a Speccy though, especially without a disk drive.
A straight conversion would look very bad. The graphic style cannot be reproduced on the Spectrum screen. If the graphics were redrawn it could work well.
I agree. Carefully drawn screens that suit the Spectrum could be done. As mentioned by others, it can be compressed and run as a multi-load from mass storage. Initially it could be written for emulators just because of its size. Any SD equipped Spectrum could also run it too. It would be a challenge but thats the point of it I guess :) It could even be shortened for the Speccy.
Has anybody done a mockup screen? It would be interesting to get a taste for what could be done.
What about to distribute the game in a new ROM cartridge of 512-4096 Kb.
The development of the cartridge would be only the ROM chip and one chip GAL22v10.
The idea is to use the same port used in my super upgrade interface, using 16kb ROM blocks.
In this case you can use all the available RAM for the program (It can be loaded directly from the cartridge) and all the adventure data could be accessed directly from the ROM chip (until 4096Mb available memory!!).
What about to distribute the game in a new ROM cartridge of 512-4096 Kb.
The development of the cartridge would be only the ROM chip and one chip GAL22v10.
The idea is to use the same port used in my super upgrade interface, using 16kb ROM blocks.
In this case you can use all the available RAM for the program (It can be loaded directly from the cartridge) and all the adventure data could be accessed directly from the ROM chip (until 4096Mb available memory!!).
Thats a great idea but how much it cost to make cartridges and how would it connect to the Speccy? Straight into the expansion socket? Sounds like a kickstarter project to me :)
I'd like to see at least one screen just to see if it would look any good for the Spec first. ULA+ graphics would be ace!
The cost could be around 10€ + the manipulation margin if we will use just for one board, connecting it directly to the expansion bus.
If the idea is to use it for more than one game, we can develope a dedicated interface with two EDGE connectors (one to connect to the computer and the another to connect a simplified cartridge), then the cost of the cartridges will be much lower.
- About 9€ the interface
- About 5€ the cartridges.
Backtracking a little on converted graphics. I did a test with the PC CGA graphics and they convert reasonably well into monochrome with dither.
Well... not horrible but also not great. I don't like dither all over the place for example.
So I still think but redrawing them in solid style would work but perhaps the CGA version is the best starting point.
Well... not horrible but also not great. I don't like dither all over the place for example.
It's quite decent. You can always say what is what. But yes, there is too much dither.
And unsurprisingly it would be quite difficult to fit all these irregular shapes into attribute grid if we wanted colour. A lot would have to be redrawn.
Backtracking a little on converted graphics. I did a test with the PC CGA graphics and they convert reasonably well into monochrome with dither.
Well... not horrible but also not great. I don't like dither all over the place for example.
So I still think but redrawing them in solid style would work but perhaps the CGA version is the best starting point.
Anyway, here they are for the sake of discussion.
To cut down on space it would need to be much simpler. Maybe modelled on the ST version but in monochrome? Or colour without any filled areas?
@4throck
Are you going to paint a screen sample ? I find it quite difficult. How would you do it ? :o
Perhaps paint by hand with the saturated speccy colours over the converted image, then select the groups of 8x8 cells that form a figure outline, for example a pirate or the hero, and finally cut and past them a bit far away of their original position so that attributes are lined up.
@wilco2009
I like very much the idea of a physical cartridge for huge games.
I've tried to convert to 8x2 attributes and the results are decent.
But I don't see that working because of space, optimization, etc, etc.
As a mockup, sure, it looks ok, but we would be fooling ourselves because it wouldn't work as a game.
@hikoki :I may try to do some solid graphics, yes, but based on realistic assumptions (scaled down graphics).
What would be realistic dimensions for those?
Imagine that we need 2 or 3 places in memory at once.
512x128 for each? What places would be a good test?
I reckon there's too much screen visible. You could narrow the play area a bit so that just a few character squares are seen above Guybrush's head. Then the environments could be tailored to suit.
Or why not create a unique ZX Spectrum story where the graphics are done from scratch and 1) tailored for this ZX story and 2) tailored for the ZX graphics display?
Or why not create a unique ZX Spectrum story where the graphics are done from scratch and 1) tailored for this ZX story and 2) tailored for the ZX graphics display?
That would be ideal, and I'm all for an original piratey adventure not at all related to Monkey Island, but I guess that would be a different thread.
I believe that it could be mentioned here before but just in case if it wasn't...
There was an attempt in Russian ZX scene to make a Spectrum version of Legend of Kyrandia. The author gave up after 10 locations or so but a demo survived:
Kyrandia is a game from roughly the same time as Monkey Island and with similar graphics quality so it gives a good sample what could be the quality of Monkey Island on Speccy.
In my opinion it's not bad. The hero would have to be kept monochrome and would get background colours but some nice touches of colour are possible.
IImagine that we need 2 or 3 places in memory at once.
512x128 for each? What places would be a good test?
The 'charm' of the Monkey Island world is presented in its graphics and sound. Any dilution of those two things would be fatal to the atmosphere.
A particular theme in all of the games is the lovely switching between bright, hot tropical days and balmy nights (the night scenes in the games were always particularly atmospheric, with the torch lights and starry skies).
If you are trying to make a test of each type of scene, maybe
Wow this thread was started nearly 10 years ago and the interest in this project is still alive! Its a good sign.
A few points -
- Would it be a good time to use such an opportunity to create a ULA+ game? This will soon be available in hardware form and the new Vega will support it also. Emulators already support it too. Just a thought as it can't be ran on an unmodified Speccy anyway.
- ScummVM. Graphics aside, a cut-down and optimised version of this engine would need to be created for the Z80. Scumm has already been created on the C64 for Maniac Mansion so I've read that it can be done with enough expertise. I guess we would need somebody like Andrew Owen or Jim Bagley for a difficult task like that if they were interested and had the time.
- Does anybody know how many screens there are in Monkey Island? Is there a site with the files available? How would this project be tackled? Would the screens be taken from source files and hand drawn or converted through a package? We need to figure out how how many screens there are and how big all those files will be once converted. Surely there is a Monkey Island site offering everything needed like sprite data, dialogue text etc? We'll need to source all this out. A screen extractor for another system like the ST or 128K Macintosh may be needed to quickly grab them all if the files arent available online.
- This game will still be very large despite the optimisation of the graphics and so how will it be offered if it was to be available in physical form? A cartridge has been mentioned and SD card storage. If it got as far as a cartridge option then would the cartridge house other needed features such as extra RAM and ULA+? Emulation only is also an option if extra RAM, ULA+ and storage is an issue. We'd need a kicksarter project to produce the cartridges in quantity for other games etc like MYst :) All suitable and short adaptions of course. Maybe Monkey Island would be more suitable as a cut down version with less screens and less parts to the game? Who would know how to produce these cartridges?
-compression. What is the best way to compress and decompress on the fly without impacting performance? Is there a solution available already?
- Sprite scaling. This would be needed in order to progress from one screen to another, can this be achieved?
- The game will need to controlled by a mouse. Keys or joystick could be used to move the cursor about but that would be frustrating.
- Its a big project so if there are going to be other similar games ported then maybe a Game Creation Tool could be developed first?
- If this project is too big to take on then would it work as a graphical text adventure? That way all of the screens wont go to waste if it proves to be too much. Or still go ahead with Monkey Island and just create a smaller game with a new story and graphics if cutting down the original if too much. But then again I suppose its easier to port a game and know what the end result should look like as we would be following the original rather than have a new project spiral out of control as there is no boundaries compared to a structured port. MI would be a much more managable project especially if we are porting over the screens and just tweaking them to suit the speccy. Its just one of those games that should have been available back in the day for the Speccy if disks were more common. A new game would be great but it would take much more effort and MI is such a great game to begin with and the challenge is still there enough for it to be fun.
Would it be a good time to use such an opportunity to create a ULA+ game?
ULA+ doesn't solve problems with colour clash. You have more colours but they still clash
I guess we would need somebody like Andrew Owen or Jim Bagley for a difficult task like that
Actually you mentioned two guys who were unable to finish any of their recent Spectrum projects;)
We'd need a kicksarter project to produce the cartridges in quantity for other games etc like MYst
One word - copyrights
As for the rest - yes, this game is possible on Spectrum. But it would require (in my estimate) about 1 year of working 8 hours a day, just like in regular job. Nobody will go for such a task.
Would it be a good time to use such an opportunity to create a ULA+ game?
ULA+ doesn't solve problems with colour clash. You have more colours but they still clash
I guess we would need somebody like Andrew Owen or Jim Bagley for a difficult task like that
Actually you mentioned two guys who were unable to finish any of their recent Spectrum projects;)
We'd need a kicksarter project to produce the cartridges in quantity for other games etc like MYst
One word - copyrights
As for the rest - yes, this game is possible on Spectrum. But it would require (in my estimate) about 1 year of working 8 hours a day, just like in regular job. Nobody will go for such a task.
I'm sure ULA+ eliminates colour clash. Either way, I was suggesting it as it would be good to support it.
The cartridge design and the costs would be something to talk about and consider if everybody is serious about this. Copyright issues are separate, I only mentioned Myst as an example for future projects just to illustrate that other larger games would need the use of the cartridge too, and so it would make sense to develop and produce them in quantity. It was mentioned in another forum post and so I'd just like to know if it has ever been done and does anybody have any expertise in making these cartridges?
also, this would be a project for a community and not just one person and there aren't any time constraints so I wouldnt worry about estimating completion dates. We've been waiting for Double Dragaon 128K since 2003.
This is my first post on WOS for about 5 years :)
We have started as a proof of concept a kind of scummvm engine for the symbos OS (which is z80 - Now just Amstrad CPC,PCw, MSX and Enterprise) Currently that doesn't work on the Speccy 128k as the banking isn't suitable. We have inquired about the Vega development but they havent responded so dont seem to be interested in Symbos.
Was looking quite cool on the CPC and MSX, though only a currently a tiny demo of graphics/animation rather than a working game. As it was part of my IDE/language tool.
If you dont know what Symbos is take a look at www.symbos.de Its a pretty amazing cross platform multitasking OS for z80 machines. Would love to have it come to the Vega
I'm using in my Superupgrade 512Kb banking, but to extend it to 4096Kb is vey easy.
I can make a prototype of it, no problem.
I think the cost is not a problem. The interface is only one chip and two connectors and each cartridge is only one ROM chip. It can be really cheap.
Perhaps, it is necessary to expend something more in a box with a colour label to have a profesional finish.
I'm using in my Superupgrade 512Kb banking, but to extend it to 4096Kb is vey easy.
I can make a prototype of it, no problem.
I think the cost is not a problem. The interface is only one chip and two connectors and each cartridge is only one ROM chip. It can be really cheap.
Perhaps, it is necessary to expend something more in a box with a colour label to have a profesional finish.
How the 16k bank switching is done? Is it possible to do it like the PCW or MSX? Prodatron looked at the Spectrum port some years ago, but the banking wasnt flexible enough. We were hoping the Vega emulation would suit it so we can include speccy users finally
For me, a decent port of Monkey Island, or any other SCUMM based game, would require:
- A Spectrum 128K/+2/+3 (at a given time, many resources will have to be available in memory, and AY sound is cool enough)
- Some kind of high speed storage option, such as DivIDE/DivMMC, under ESXDOS, or DivIDE/DivMMC/ZXMMC/whatever under +3e. Both options could be supported using two different executables. The big file with the script would be the same. Spectranet could be an option too. These three interfaces provide an API so the user can open and read files.
- ULAplus is desirable, but I don't think it's mandatory.
- Original SCUMM games were designed to be used with both arrow keys and/or mouse. Kempston mouse is available as Spectrum interface, so it can be used. ZX-Uno will support it.
So, this Monkey Island could be run in an original unmodified Speccy (128K), provided it has a supported mass storage interface. Vega compatibiliy depends upon Vega supporting any of the above mentioned mas storage systems. ZX-Uno compatibiliy is assured (we support DivMMC and ZXMMC atm, and Kempston mouse in the near future) :)
I don't know how is done the bank switching in MSX or CPC. I think you mean in ROM cartridges.
My design is simple. ROM paging uses $0000..$3FFF address range.
You have to call to the $043B port with the page number (0..255), and that's all.
$4000-$FFFF is the computer standard RAM. It remains unmodified.
At ROM startup you can copy the program from ROM to the 48Kb of RAM (if you use a 48Kb speccy), and then access as needed to the data in all other 16Kb ROM blocks.
It is easy to implement, and I think is effective.
Hi!
I don't know if I already asked you.. What about a full colour version with Bifrost?
You don't need too much movement, only few objects move in the screens,
Or maybe an hybrid colour mode(half Bifrost, half standard).
The cart version is an interesting option, I'll buy it ��
Please do a colour version.. Not monochrome ( I know that it's hard, but Monkey island without colour is a lack of its original beauty)
Comments
I played it in a 8086 back in the day and it required 7 double-sided disks (740kb, not those fancy new double density disks heh). If I recall correctly it wasn't completely lineal requiring "old" disks further on in the game.
I don’t think I have the stomach for it.
--Raziel (Legend of Kain: Soul Reaver 2)
https://www.youtube.com/user/VincentTSFP
But within each part, you can go anywhere.
It's more than two parts really, although a lot of locations are reused between them. It'd still be a squeeze on a Speccy though, especially without a disk drive.
I agree. Carefully drawn screens that suit the Spectrum could be done. As mentioned by others, it can be compressed and run as a multi-load from mass storage. Initially it could be written for emulators just because of its size. Any SD equipped Spectrum could also run it too. It would be a challenge but thats the point of it I guess :) It could even be shortened for the Speccy.
Has anybody done a mockup screen? It would be interesting to get a taste for what could be done.
The development of the cartridge would be only the ROM chip and one chip GAL22v10.
The idea is to use the same port used in my super upgrade interface, using 16kb ROM blocks.
In this case you can use all the available RAM for the program (It can be loaded directly from the cartridge) and all the adventure data could be accessed directly from the ROM chip (until 4096Mb available memory!!).
Thats a great idea but how much it cost to make cartridges and how would it connect to the Speccy? Straight into the expansion socket? Sounds like a kickstarter project to me :)
I'd like to see at least one screen just to see if it would look any good for the Spec first. ULA+ graphics would be ace!
EPROM = 3€
GAL = 1,5€
EDGE CONNECTOR = 2€
BOARD = 3€
The cost could be around 10€ + the manipulation margin if we will use just for one board, connecting it directly to the expansion bus.
If the idea is to use it for more than one game, we can develope a dedicated interface with two EDGE connectors (one to connect to the computer and the another to connect a simplified cartridge), then the cost of the cartridges will be much lower.
- About 9€ the interface
- About 5€ the cartridges.
Previous are material cost only.
Well... not horrible but also not great. I don't like dither all over the place for example.
So I still think but redrawing them in solid style would work but perhaps the CGA version is the best starting point.
Anyway, here they are for the sake of discussion.
It's quite decent. You can always say what is what. But yes, there is too much dither.
And unsurprisingly it would be quite difficult to fit all these irregular shapes into attribute grid if we wanted colour. A lot would have to be redrawn.
To cut down on space it would need to be much simpler. Maybe modelled on the ST version but in monochrome? Or colour without any filled areas?
Are you going to paint a screen sample ? I find it quite difficult. How would you do it ? :o
Perhaps paint by hand with the saturated speccy colours over the converted image, then select the groups of 8x8 cells that form a figure outline, for example a pirate or the hero, and finally cut and past them a bit far away of their original position so that attributes are lined up.
@wilco2009
I like very much the idea of a physical cartridge for huge games.
JSpeccy-win32-portable
But I don't see that working because of space, optimization, etc, etc.
As a mockup, sure, it looks ok, but we would be fooling ourselves because it wouldn't work as a game.
@hikoki :I may try to do some solid graphics, yes, but based on realistic assumptions (scaled down graphics).
What would be realistic dimensions for those?
Imagine that we need 2 or 3 places in memory at once.
512x128 for each? What places would be a good test?
That would be ideal, and I'm all for an original piratey adventure not at all related to Monkey Island, but I guess that would be a different thread.
There was an attempt in Russian ZX scene to make a Spectrum version of Legend of Kyrandia. The author gave up after 10 locations or so but a demo survived:
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/infoseekid.cgi?id=0026541
Kyrandia is a game from roughly the same time as Monkey Island and with similar graphics quality so it gives a good sample what could be the quality of Monkey Island on Speccy.
In my opinion it's not bad. The hero would have to be kept monochrome and would get background colours but some nice touches of colour are possible.
The 'charm' of the Monkey Island world is presented in its graphics and sound. Any dilution of those two things would be fatal to the atmosphere.
A particular theme in all of the games is the lovely switching between bright, hot tropical days and balmy nights (the night scenes in the games were always particularly atmospheric, with the torch lights and starry skies).
If you are trying to make a test of each type of scene, maybe
1) The vegetarian cannabal village
https://peukalo.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/bg_cannibals1.png
2) Stans place
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120508160429/monkeyisland/images/1/16/Stan_vessels.gif
or maybe the town square, which is one of the first scenes
http://s20.photobucket.com/user/ATMachine/media/mimisc/mi1vga3.png.html
There was a representation of it above, in monochrome, which is horrid.
http://www.scummvm.org/data/screenshots/lec/monkey/scummvm_0_4_0-full.png
The original authors didn't have a problem with that...
Or with the pink / cyan CGA colors :D ...
yes, and it looks ****e
A few points -
- Would it be a good time to use such an opportunity to create a ULA+ game? This will soon be available in hardware form and the new Vega will support it also. Emulators already support it too. Just a thought as it can't be ran on an unmodified Speccy anyway.
- ScummVM. Graphics aside, a cut-down and optimised version of this engine would need to be created for the Z80. Scumm has already been created on the C64 for Maniac Mansion so I've read that it can be done with enough expertise. I guess we would need somebody like Andrew Owen or Jim Bagley for a difficult task like that if they were interested and had the time.
- Does anybody know how many screens there are in Monkey Island? Is there a site with the files available? How would this project be tackled? Would the screens be taken from source files and hand drawn or converted through a package? We need to figure out how how many screens there are and how big all those files will be once converted. Surely there is a Monkey Island site offering everything needed like sprite data, dialogue text etc? We'll need to source all this out. A screen extractor for another system like the ST or 128K Macintosh may be needed to quickly grab them all if the files arent available online.
- This game will still be very large despite the optimisation of the graphics and so how will it be offered if it was to be available in physical form? A cartridge has been mentioned and SD card storage. If it got as far as a cartridge option then would the cartridge house other needed features such as extra RAM and ULA+? Emulation only is also an option if extra RAM, ULA+ and storage is an issue. We'd need a kicksarter project to produce the cartridges in quantity for other games etc like MYst :) All suitable and short adaptions of course. Maybe Monkey Island would be more suitable as a cut down version with less screens and less parts to the game? Who would know how to produce these cartridges?
-compression. What is the best way to compress and decompress on the fly without impacting performance? Is there a solution available already?
- Sprite scaling. This would be needed in order to progress from one screen to another, can this be achieved?
- The game will need to controlled by a mouse. Keys or joystick could be used to move the cursor about but that would be frustrating.
- Its a big project so if there are going to be other similar games ported then maybe a Game Creation Tool could be developed first?
- If this project is too big to take on then would it work as a graphical text adventure? That way all of the screens wont go to waste if it proves to be too much. Or still go ahead with Monkey Island and just create a smaller game with a new story and graphics if cutting down the original if too much. But then again I suppose its easier to port a game and know what the end result should look like as we would be following the original rather than have a new project spiral out of control as there is no boundaries compared to a structured port. MI would be a much more managable project especially if we are porting over the screens and just tweaking them to suit the speccy. Its just one of those games that should have been available back in the day for the Speccy if disks were more common. A new game would be great but it would take much more effort and MI is such a great game to begin with and the challenge is still there enough for it to be fun.
ULA+ doesn't solve problems with colour clash. You have more colours but they still clash
I guess we would need somebody like Andrew Owen or Jim Bagley for a difficult task like that
Actually you mentioned two guys who were unable to finish any of their recent Spectrum projects ;)
We'd need a kicksarter project to produce the cartridges in quantity for other games etc like MYst
One word - copyrights
As for the rest - yes, this game is possible on Spectrum. But it would require (in my estimate) about 1 year of working 8 hours a day, just like in regular job. Nobody will go for such a task.
I'm sure ULA+ eliminates colour clash. Either way, I was suggesting it as it would be good to support it.
The cartridge design and the costs would be something to talk about and consider if everybody is serious about this. Copyright issues are separate, I only mentioned Myst as an example for future projects just to illustrate that other larger games would need the use of the cartridge too, and so it would make sense to develop and produce them in quantity. It was mentioned in another forum post and so I'd just like to know if it has ever been done and does anybody have any expertise in making these cartridges?
also, this would be a project for a community and not just one person and there aren't any time constraints so I wouldnt worry about estimating completion dates. We've been waiting for Double Dragaon 128K since 2003.
We have started as a proof of concept a kind of scummvm engine for the symbos OS (which is z80 - Now just Amstrad CPC,PCw, MSX and Enterprise) Currently that doesn't work on the Speccy 128k as the banking isn't suitable. We have inquired about the Vega development but they havent responded so dont seem to be interested in Symbos.
Was looking quite cool on the CPC and MSX, though only a currently a tiny demo of graphics/animation rather than a working game. As it was part of my IDE/language tool.
If you dont know what Symbos is take a look at www.symbos.de Its a pretty amazing cross platform multitasking OS for z80 machines. Would love to have it come to the Vega
I'm using in my Superupgrade 512Kb banking, but to extend it to 4096Kb is vey easy.
I can make a prototype of it, no problem.
I think the cost is not a problem. The interface is only one chip and two connectors and each cartridge is only one ROM chip. It can be really cheap.
Perhaps, it is necessary to expend something more in a box with a colour label to have a profesional finish.
- A Spectrum 128K/+2/+3 (at a given time, many resources will have to be available in memory, and AY sound is cool enough)
- Some kind of high speed storage option, such as DivIDE/DivMMC, under ESXDOS, or DivIDE/DivMMC/ZXMMC/whatever under +3e. Both options could be supported using two different executables. The big file with the script would be the same. Spectranet could be an option too. These three interfaces provide an API so the user can open and read files.
- ULAplus is desirable, but I don't think it's mandatory.
- Original SCUMM games were designed to be used with both arrow keys and/or mouse. Kempston mouse is available as Spectrum interface, so it can be used. ZX-Uno will support it.
So, this Monkey Island could be run in an original unmodified Speccy (128K), provided it has a supported mass storage interface. Vega compatibiliy depends upon Vega supporting any of the above mentioned mas storage systems. ZX-Uno compatibiliy is assured (we support DivMMC and ZXMMC atm, and Kempston mouse in the near future) :)
My design is simple. ROM paging uses $0000..$3FFF address range.
You have to call to the $043B port with the page number (0..255), and that's all.
$4000-$FFFF is the computer standard RAM. It remains unmodified.
At ROM startup you can copy the program from ROM to the 48Kb of RAM (if you use a 48Kb speccy), and then access as needed to the data in all other 16Kb ROM blocks.
It is easy to implement, and I think is effective.
I don't know if I already asked you.. What about a full colour version with Bifrost?
You don't need too much movement, only few objects move in the screens,
Or maybe an hybrid colour mode(half Bifrost, half standard).
The cart version is an interesting option, I'll buy it ��
Please do a colour version.. Not monochrome ( I know that it's hard, but Monkey island without colour is a lack of its original beauty)