This whole thread while it started out ok, and many argued fairly and there are interesting gameplay videos across all platforms, seems to me now like a job for Fester Shinetop.!!
The c64 kids must really have been cruel to you back in school. 30 years on and you still live in denial about anything c64!
You write that in response to my, "Not quite. Basically it contains more "colour" because of colour."
What?
That response is a valid answer. How on earth did you manage to take it so personally? As I mentioned before, there weren't any C64 kids at school. Denial? Read my posts. I own and play C64 games. Just not the ones that you do. I think you're reading something into these posts that isn't there. Keep it together, man.
Yeah last post from me on this, its getting a bit mean spirited. I love both machines, and I hope I've not offended anyone by sticking up for the 64, or come across as arrogant.
Right guys, let's get this back (reasonably) on topic, cut out the deliberate personal attacks (there's one person in particular) and try and be a little nicer to one another.
I wouldn't want to have to locked the thread, ban somebody or do both!!!
Didn't mean it to be as cruel as it was obviously interpreted. I beg forgiveness.
With only one coloured hires sprite, you have that one colour + background colour. To get any detail or depth to the sprite you have to use one pixel background for every pixel ink where you want that "depth" into the sprite, whereas with a multicoloured sprite you can add another coloured pixel next to the last. Just look at the examples of Donkey Kong and Bubble Bobble, surely they're more detailed than their spectrum counterparts?
And a c64 sprite can also be on top of a different coloured sprite with the sprite underneath being visible on the background colour of the sprite on top. That gives a lot more detail than the technique they used in spectrum Bubble Bobble where sprites completely overlap each other with background colour and all.
Yeah, Im sorry too if my silly humour about platforms that where not part of the discussion to start with annoyed anyone - i never intend anything to offend - I usally make attempts humour at my own expense, or to defuse, not to wind up.
And a c64 sprite can also be on top of a different coloured sprite with the sprite underneath being visible on the background colour of the sprite on top. That gives a lot more detail than the technique they used in spectrum Bubble Bobble where sprites completely overlap each other with background colour and all.
But that's an intentional technique on the Spectrum version, it's not something you're limited to in the way you draw sprites. And, honestly, Bubble Bobble nor Donkey Kong are exactly examples of the pinnacle of spectrum graphics, it's like criticising all C64 graphics based on the quality of Booty.
Why did you not like it? Just curious. I had seemingly grown out of computers when the 16bits came along and was apathetic to all, bar maybe a second hand SNES I picked up from smack Generator about 96/97.
I will go as far as to say I thought the C64 was better than the ST. It's certainly not the most ludicrous statement I've read on here today :-P
Not quite. Basically it contains more "colour" because of colour.
I think you are deliberately missing the point?
I've given you plenty of examples where the detail - and information - in a low resolution bitmap is increased by increasing the colour depth (or greyscale). And that detail and information scales more (increases) by increasing bit depth than increasing resolution.
That would not be possible with just 1 colour. Because you are forced to draw outlines, you run out of pixels very quickly (and to repeat, it was exactly the reason Mario wears overalls)
I know you do. I've explained it as clearly as I can. I can see how you interpret things and I don't think you'll ever grasp it. So honestly, don't worry about it. This is what makes fandom what it is.
Well, this is a forum, and you are contributing quite vigourously to the debate, but are suddenly quite shy about explaining what you mean? I'm reasonalby good at grasping difficult concepts, its my job. So you can try.... How is it that the amiga is as close as can possibly be in execution to the spectrum?
Why did you not like it? Just curious. I had seemingly grown out of computers when the 16bits came along and was apathetic to all, bar maybe a second hand SNES I picked up from smack Generator about 96/97.
I will go as far as to say I thought the C64 was better than the ST. It's certainly not the most ludicrous statement I've read on here today :-P
I can tell you why I didnt like it. no onboard OS. having to load the damned OS (which made 2 drives almost mandatory) just to copy one file from one disk to another. sheer hell to me.
developing on an ST was by comparison a charm. stick a disk in and GEM appeared. lovely. made doing 8 bit stuff on it nice too. by the early 90s I didnt game on either of them with the exception of Their Finest Hour as by 91 i was gaming on a 286 PC (microprose fan) in vga and a soundblaster card.
I can appreciate the amiga's superiority for games over the ST generally but it wasnt half as good as everyone made out it was when you developed for it.
I don't think it was colour clash he's referring to (unless I'm misreading it) but rather the way sprites in Bubble Bobble aren't really masked, they're just drawn as opaque squares, which is obvious when you look at static screenshots where bubble overlap. It's used there both because it's faster to draw and reduces the possibility of sprites merging together into a big blob and the design of sprites means it's not really that noticeable in the heat of the action.
Why did you not like it? Just curious. I had seemingly grown out of computers when the 16bits came along and was apathetic to all, bar maybe a second hand SNES I picked up from smack Generator about 96/97.
I will go as far as to say I thought the C64 was better than the ST. It's certainly not the most ludicrous statement I've read on here today :-P
I didn't own an Amiga when they were new or anything like that, I got given one years later, and still didn't like it. I wanted one when I was younger and after playing on my mates Amigas started to think that I didn't really want one any more. In the end I never did get one, probably wouldn't have given the price tag anyway, but I stopped bugging my ma for one long before Christmas, and used what money I'd saved to go towards it for something else.
A decision I don't regret, I've said it before the Amiga was crap as a games machine, all graphics and no substance. I've said it before but Psygnosis , and EA were probably the main offenders for doing this. the majority of the games looked great at the time, but were about as much fun to play as getting stabbed in the knob with a broken bottle.
Even though I did get a lot of gameplay from the Amiga, I've never been tempted to seek out an emulator for it and re-play some of the games, unlike the two earlier computers. With the exceptions of Sensible Soccer, Twintris, and Paradroid '90, I can't really recall any games that I particularly enjoyed playing on it, even though I must have tried quite a few.
Even though I did get a lot of gameplay from the Amiga, I've never been tempted to seek out an emulator for it and re-play some of the games, unlike the two earlier computers. With the exceptions of Sensible Soccer, Twintris, and Paradroid '90, I can't really recall any games that I particularly enjoyed playing on it, even though I must have tried quite a few.
Probably cos' most of the games are so unbalanced it's like being given the Mona Lisa to look at while you play Mario's Cement factory on Game & Watch.
So your main claim is 'Lower Resolution' = 'More Detail'? Brilliant. I think it just about sums up the logic of a typical post around here.
Lol, I guess the detail in the context as presented meant colour detail, not actual pixel detail. 256 shades of gray may get you great tonal detail and excellent pictures, but 16.8 mil will definitely get you more detail per pixel at the same resolution, or lower.
Take that Robocop 2, sometimes the colour allows details to pop even though the Spectrum version is a lot more defined in its monochrome.
Again though, the C64 is perfectly capable of displaying those types of graphics, and if you managed to clock the processor to be equivalent to the Spectrum's 3.5mhz z80 (around 2mhz), then you would have the speed too.
Also, I bow to your very evident capabilities as a Spectrum programmer, Buzzsaw was something else, but exactly because it had multicolor sprites without clash, and yourself said in the 50hz thread that the Spectrum is pretty much maxed out making it work, so from that I'd assume that something like Uridium at 50hz would be out of the question, so I wonder if you were to combine the rainbow processing with the 50hz scroll, how fast you'd have to clock the Z80 to make something like Uridium work?
It's just swings and roundabouts.. C64 can display spectrum hi-res mode but main processor can't handle the action on top of it, but while the Spectrum has the raw grunt in those situations, it doesn't have enough processing power to do 50hz scroll and the multicolour.
Amiga was a great computer. SWOS, Sensi, Kick Off 2, Wizkid, Monkey Island, Wings, Speedball 2, ICFTD, Infocom adventures, Dungeon Master etc etc. It wasn't too great when it tried to 'do' console style platformers and beat-em-ups (mainly due to having just 1 fire button), but for everything else it was brill.
Ummm... Yes. So it has its fans, and over the years, many fan-clubs. Therefore fandom. All computers have. You say you're reasonably good at grasping difficult concepts? Maybe, but the starkly obvious has eluded you again. I'm not going to bother trying any more with you. It ain't worth it.
Well, this is a forum, and you are contributing quite vigourously to the debate, but are suddenly quite shy about explaining what you mean.
Hardly shy at all. Jeepers, don't think I've ever been called that before. :) I've put my point across enough times, and I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. You'll have to put it behind you and move on.
Edit: Oh, go on then... one last time:
The Amiga was for me, in all conceivable ways as laid out above, the “Spiritual Successor” to the ZX Spectrum because…
Taking into account all the machines available at the time, the Amiga was the 16bit machine that echoed the Spectrum’s ethos. It ticked many of the boxes that were on my 16bit Spectrum list, barring one, that it be fully backwards compatible (ie: Speccy cassette games!) Firstly, without playing any of the games, they should at least look like Spectrum games, and that they did. The graphics presented were vibrant, with Spectrum colour-choices used within square pixel drawings. To look at an Amiga game, was to notice attention to detail that you could only find in a Spectrum game. The approach to the player was evidently a nod to the games of old, where imagination and story were prevalent over throwing sprites on a screen. There were a few examples to the contrary, and it took a while to be convinced, but ultimately, no other machine came close in presenting game-design in the same way.
Take the 256 colour Spectrum emulator and compare to Amiga versions of games. They’re similar enough, and have that little extra, which is what you’d wish for on a newer system. When the A1200 came out, there we had it. Not just the graphics, but an evolution of the dynamics as well, a trend which had been followed to the letter. The Amiga approached the Spectrum user who wanted to see a familiar machine that would present a similar gaming experience into the mid-late 1990s
Not the same on ST. Not the same on ECS PC. Bod and Farmer Barleymo are not Snap, but Bod and Bod, are. Amiga1200 matches. That’s Snap. Part of the family.
It doesn't matter how many colours you have available, though the more you have can help, but it's what you can do with what you have that's important.
It doesn't matter how many colours you have available, though the more you have can help, but it's what you can do with what you have that's important.
Exactily. Tetris on Gameboy was mono, yet is more addictive than probably 90% of full colour games.
It doesn't matter how many colours you have available, though the more you have can help, but it's what you can do with what you have that's important.
Well said.
A punk band typically has guitars, drums and a very limited vocal range. The opera has an entire orchestra pit and many octaves of highly trained vocals. Plenty of people simply prefer punk to opera.
It doesn't matter how many colours you have available, though the more you have can help, but it's what you can do with what you have that's important.
We all have computers capable of displaying photographic images now, we can look at anything we want (;-)), so why are so many of us here and elsewhere still interested in looking at new Speccy graphics?
Well, I'd say ZX Spectrum graphic creation has become a minor artform in itself. I do feel that an appreciation of art is not just about the final image; it's also about being amazed and inspired by the artist's ingenuity and expertise in using their chosen medium, be it chalk, pastels, oil paint, clay, stone, or a ZX Spectrum.
Comments
You write that in response to my, "Not quite. Basically it contains more "colour" because of colour."
What?
That response is a valid answer. How on earth did you manage to take it so personally? As I mentioned before, there weren't any C64 kids at school. Denial? Read my posts. I own and play C64 games. Just not the ones that you do. I think you're reading something into these posts that isn't there. Keep it together, man.
I wouldn't want to have to locked the thread, ban somebody or do both!!!
I've never owned an ST, but I like it better than the Amiga.
As for SNES vs Megadrive, I'd go Megadrive, but I'd also go SNES, there's a lot of reasons for preferring one over the other for different things.
This thread is a joke, and this conversation will always end up a joke :p
With only one coloured hires sprite, you have that one colour + background colour. To get any detail or depth to the sprite you have to use one pixel background for every pixel ink where you want that "depth" into the sprite, whereas with a multicoloured sprite you can add another coloured pixel next to the last. Just look at the examples of Donkey Kong and Bubble Bobble, surely they're more detailed than their spectrum counterparts?
And a c64 sprite can also be on top of a different coloured sprite with the sprite underneath being visible on the background colour of the sprite on top. That gives a lot more detail than the technique they used in spectrum Bubble Bobble where sprites completely overlap each other with background colour and all.
But that's an intentional technique on the Spectrum version, it's not something you're limited to in the way you draw sprites. And, honestly, Bubble Bobble nor Donkey Kong are exactly examples of the pinnacle of spectrum graphics, it's like criticising all C64 graphics based on the quality of Booty.
Why did you not like it? Just curious. I had seemingly grown out of computers when the 16bits came along and was apathetic to all, bar maybe a second hand SNES I picked up from smack Generator about 96/97.
I will go as far as to say I thought the C64 was better than the ST. It's certainly not the most ludicrous statement I've read on here today :-P
?????
I think you are deliberately missing the point?
I've given you plenty of examples where the detail - and information - in a low resolution bitmap is increased by increasing the colour depth (or greyscale). And that detail and information scales more (increases) by increasing bit depth than increasing resolution.
For example
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130828225140/mario/images/e/e4/Mario_Sprite.jpg
That would not be possible with just 1 colour. Because you are forced to draw outlines, you run out of pixels very quickly (and to repeat, it was exactly the reason Mario wears overalls)
Well, this is a forum, and you are contributing quite vigourously to the debate, but are suddenly quite shy about explaining what you mean? I'm reasonalby good at grasping difficult concepts, its my job. So you can try.... How is it that the amiga is as close as can possibly be in execution to the spectrum?
"Fandom"? wtf...its a computer......
thats one way of describing colour clash:lol:
I can tell you why I didnt like it. no onboard OS. having to load the damned OS (which made 2 drives almost mandatory) just to copy one file from one disk to another. sheer hell to me.
developing on an ST was by comparison a charm. stick a disk in and GEM appeared. lovely. made doing 8 bit stuff on it nice too. by the early 90s I didnt game on either of them with the exception of Their Finest Hour as by 91 i was gaming on a 286 PC (microprose fan) in vga and a soundblaster card.
I can appreciate the amiga's superiority for games over the ST generally but it wasnt half as good as everyone made out it was when you developed for it.
I don't think it was colour clash he's referring to (unless I'm misreading it) but rather the way sprites in Bubble Bobble aren't really masked, they're just drawn as opaque squares, which is obvious when you look at static screenshots where bubble overlap. It's used there both because it's faster to draw and reduces the possibility of sprites merging together into a big blob and the design of sprites means it's not really that noticeable in the heat of the action.
I didn't own an Amiga when they were new or anything like that, I got given one years later, and still didn't like it. I wanted one when I was younger and after playing on my mates Amigas started to think that I didn't really want one any more. In the end I never did get one, probably wouldn't have given the price tag anyway, but I stopped bugging my ma for one long before Christmas, and used what money I'd saved to go towards it for something else.
A decision I don't regret, I've said it before the Amiga was crap as a games machine, all graphics and no substance. I've said it before but Psygnosis , and EA were probably the main offenders for doing this. the majority of the games looked great at the time, but were about as much fun to play as getting stabbed in the knob with a broken bottle.
You don't want me to start talking about my knob ;)
Even though I did get a lot of gameplay from the Amiga, I've never been tempted to seek out an emulator for it and re-play some of the games, unlike the two earlier computers. With the exceptions of Sensible Soccer, Twintris, and Paradroid '90, I can't really recall any games that I particularly enjoyed playing on it, even though I must have tried quite a few.
I get that now :lol: (Thought you meant he should compare to the ST)
Probably cos' most of the games are so unbalanced it's like being given the Mona Lisa to look at while you play Mario's Cement factory on Game & Watch.
Lol, I guess the detail in the context as presented meant colour detail, not actual pixel detail. 256 shades of gray may get you great tonal detail and excellent pictures, but 16.8 mil will definitely get you more detail per pixel at the same resolution, or lower.
Take that Robocop 2, sometimes the colour allows details to pop even though the Spectrum version is a lot more defined in its monochrome.
Again though, the C64 is perfectly capable of displaying those types of graphics, and if you managed to clock the processor to be equivalent to the Spectrum's 3.5mhz z80 (around 2mhz), then you would have the speed too.
Also, I bow to your very evident capabilities as a Spectrum programmer, Buzzsaw was something else, but exactly because it had multicolor sprites without clash, and yourself said in the 50hz thread that the Spectrum is pretty much maxed out making it work, so from that I'd assume that something like Uridium at 50hz would be out of the question, so I wonder if you were to combine the rainbow processing with the 50hz scroll, how fast you'd have to clock the Z80 to make something like Uridium work?
It's just swings and roundabouts.. C64 can display spectrum hi-res mode but main processor can't handle the action on top of it, but while the Spectrum has the raw grunt in those situations, it doesn't have enough processing power to do 50hz scroll and the multicolour.
Ummm... Yes. So it has its fans, and over the years, many fan-clubs. Therefore fandom. All computers have. You say you're reasonably good at grasping difficult concepts? Maybe, but the starkly obvious has eluded you again. I'm not going to bother trying any more with you. It ain't worth it.
Hardly shy at all. Jeepers, don't think I've ever been called that before. :) I've put my point across enough times, and I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. You'll have to put it behind you and move on.
Edit: Oh, go on then... one last time:
The Amiga was for me, in all conceivable ways as laid out above, the “Spiritual Successor” to the ZX Spectrum because…
Taking into account all the machines available at the time, the Amiga was the 16bit machine that echoed the Spectrum’s ethos. It ticked many of the boxes that were on my 16bit Spectrum list, barring one, that it be fully backwards compatible (ie: Speccy cassette games!) Firstly, without playing any of the games, they should at least look like Spectrum games, and that they did. The graphics presented were vibrant, with Spectrum colour-choices used within square pixel drawings. To look at an Amiga game, was to notice attention to detail that you could only find in a Spectrum game. The approach to the player was evidently a nod to the games of old, where imagination and story were prevalent over throwing sprites on a screen. There were a few examples to the contrary, and it took a while to be convinced, but ultimately, no other machine came close in presenting game-design in the same way.
Take the 256 colour Spectrum emulator and compare to Amiga versions of games. They’re similar enough, and have that little extra, which is what you’d wish for on a newer system. When the A1200 came out, there we had it. Not just the graphics, but an evolution of the dynamics as well, a trend which had been followed to the letter. The Amiga approached the Spectrum user who wanted to see a familiar machine that would present a similar gaming experience into the mid-late 1990s
Not the same on ST. Not the same on ECS PC. Bod and Farmer Barleymo are not Snap, but Bod and Bod, are. Amiga1200 matches. That’s Snap. Part of the family.
Exactily. Tetris on Gameboy was mono, yet is more addictive than probably 90% of full colour games.
Spelling. It is another simple concept. I was just ribbing you, sorry.
Well said.
A punk band typically has guitars, drums and a very limited vocal range. The opera has an entire orchestra pit and many octaves of highly trained vocals. Plenty of people simply prefer punk to opera.
We all have computers capable of displaying photographic images now, we can look at anything we want (;-)), so why are so many of us here and elsewhere still interested in looking at new Speccy graphics?
Well, I'd say ZX Spectrum graphic creation has become a minor artform in itself. I do feel that an appreciation of art is not just about the final image; it's also about being amazed and inspired by the artist's ingenuity and expertise in using their chosen medium, be it chalk, pastels, oil paint, clay, stone, or a ZX Spectrum.