I do not post much on WoS but have been an avid reader for about 10 years or even longer!
I voted and have campaigned in one way or another for "Out" for at least two decades, and I'll tell you why, very simple it is called democracy.
I can not believe today's result and I am very happy.
I do not post much on WoS but have been an avid reader for about 10 years or even longer!
I voted and have campaigned in one way or another for "Out" for at least two decades, and I'll tell you why, very simple it is called democracy.
I can not believe today's result and I am very happy.
Are we definitely out though? Does a referendum mean that the bigwigs have to go through the process of leaving the EU now, or does it just give them the option?
Post edited by chriswyatt on
My only Speccy game (so far): a simple snake clone
Can you provide a link to prove that, please? I really don't think that European companies will refuse to buy or sell from us if we don't agree to something that they (the companies) have little interest in. Companies (who exist to make money, of course) don't tend to shut off dealings with other companies over things that don't benefit them.
Indeed, German car manufacturers have already expressed a desire to continue to trade with us.
"But in leaving the EU, in future, they may no longer work as closely with us as they do now."
I keep hearing this, but I don't get it. If one of our intelligence organisations contacts one from an EU country, are they going to say: sorry, but you're not a member of the EU??
I'm not saying that point is wrong (I don't know), it's just that I've not yet heard anyone elaborate on that argument yet, i.e., why will we not work closely? What will get in our way??
it probably means they wont share information as freely as when we were "friendly" friends, obviously if we ask they will but the other way round i doubt theyd be as free.
Professional Mel-the-Bell Simulator................"So realistic, I found myself reaching for the Kleenex King-Size!" - Richard Darling
You made the ludicrous claim that much of the Out votes were due to racism which is wrong, pure and simple. Wanting control of your borders (in a very overcrowded island) is not wrong, neither is wanting to ban murderers/rapists/terrorists etc of any race/creed/religion from coming in.
Where did I make racist comments? I did not. From what you are saying, you are implying that I implied that I thought everyone hated anyone other than British citizens. But I said no such thing and I did not mean to imply any such thing.
I did not say you said anything racist, I said "You made the ludicrous claim that much of the Out votes were due to racism which is wrong".
I said this, because you said "All this, just because some people did not like the fact that they could not understand friendly people who speak another language." which clearly implies that (to you) the out voters are racists.
We are not living on an overcrowded island. There are many other places in the world where the density of people living in an equivalent percentage area is far greater. Maybe some UK cities do come close to being density populated.
Then perhaps those places are MORE overcrowded. Great Britain is overcrowded, NOT THE MOST crowded place in the world.
England has approx. 410 people per square kilometre. France has 121. Germany has 229. So why should England get so many immigrants when we are far more overcrowded than so many other European countries?
It is a illusion that we have control or will ever have control of our borders. This conservative govenment (or was it the con-den govenment, I forget) thought the matter so important, they actually reduced border staff numbers. They were then caught out and had to increase them.
Yes, but we CAN improve things now. Not when the EU told us what to do.
Of course we should deal with murderers/rapists/terrorists. But in order to know who is and who is not a murderer/rapist/terrorist, we need to cooperate with other countries. But in leaving the EU, in future, they may no longer work as closely with us as they do now. So if we don't know about the murderers/rapists/terrorists, border control will have no reason to stop them.
Right, because now they won't have passports, and their countries of origins will now no longer answer our questions about them, will they? Actually, yes they'll still have verifiable passports, and and our border people/police can still converse with their European counterparts.
Oh, and by the way, we currently have border control.
Letting in so, so many people, with almost no say in who we bar is not border control.
On the subject of terrorists, the vast majority of terrorists (granted not all) are normally citizens of the country they are revelling against. So no amount of border control can help if they are UK citizens.
Right, so we should stop trying to stop the (few) immigrants who are terrorists?
For your information, myself, my main reasons for staying in are:
stability of the U.K. I don't want another Banking crash. Or wild currency fluctuations.
The first banking crash happened when we WERE IN THE EU. And no one has put in checks to stop it happening again.
[*] financial - a heathy U.K. and heathy E.U. are good for companies, so that's better for employees.
Healthy? We've cut vital services to the bone, the NHS is in an appalling state,
Actually, forget it. You must be deliberately blind to the nonsense you're typing, so I'm exiting this thread now. The fact is (for once) common sense won, and people like you can't see past your own limited viewpoint and regard everyone who voted against your point of view is plain wrong, regardless of how much evidence and facts they have to support their (mostly common sense) points.
I'll answer one more of your points, and even though I won't be back to see your response, if you do stand by your 'logic' then PM me we can arrange where you can send the money and prove me wrong.
[*] a lot of the money that we send to the EU comes back and is spent in the UK. Including money that helped me in the past with a training course I went on. The EU also spends money on UK farmers and in less well off areas like Cornwall.
OK. So by that logic, you'd happily send me all of your money, I'll send you 40% back, and we'll both be happy?
Somehow I think it's different when it's your money, and not other peoples'. Tax payers billions wasted? Fine by you.
No it's not. What would have been EU contributions can instead now be put into public services, whereas money on the FTSE is privately controlled, and won't benefit us at all. You saying that is like me saying that if I lose a £10 note, then you've also lost ten quid.
Not that I'm saying the £55m per day we'll save *will* be spent on the public, of course. It will still be left to the potentially incompetent and/or corrupt government to decide where to distribute the money. But at least now we can vote them out if we (as a whole) choose, whereas we couldn't vote out the Euro government.
Yes, now we have democracy we can hold the elected MP's to account 100% (and not 25% due rules, laws & legislation handed down from Brussels).
The key thing with this excess money is that we can now vote in a party that CAN do what we, as the electorate, want do with it. All to the NHS or a percentage? What percentage? Perhaps spend it on infrastructure or even paying off the national debt standing at £1.7 Trillion (£47k per taxpayer). I have heard of the 'Leave' campaign's message is to think of the children, indeed removing this shackle is a great way to unburden the future generations!
I feel sad, as to devide the EU into nation states increases definitely the power of USA and our dependency of them. I wished the EU would have been forced to solve problems more than to despair of them. The freedom and power of a united Europe for me is worthwhile even if I am unsatisfied with a number of decisions of the actual European administration.
It doesn't matter what German car makers want, it will only take ONE of the member nations to veto a trade deal with the UK that they see as better than the one they have themselves. Not all of the EU countries have trade deficits with the UK, it would be no skin off their nose.
I do not post much on WoS but have been an avid reader for about 10 years or even longer!
I voted and have campaigned in one way or another for "Out" for at least two decades, and I'll tell you why, very simple it is called democracy.
I can not believe today's result and I am very happy.
Democracy? You are about to get a Prime Minister that nobody voted for. Well done, LOL.
It doesn't matter what German car makers want, it will only take ONE of the member nations to veto a trade deal with the UK that they see as better than the one they have themselves. Not all of the EU countries have trade deficits with the UK, it would be no skin off their nose. As for the things that the Brexitters thought they were voting for, those have already been reneged on: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/3-brexit-promises-campaigners-wriggled-8271762
Then we will buy non-EU cars, eg. Nissan, Hyundai, Ford etc..
Heck, we may even be able to resurrect the UK's car industry!
And Germany does have quite a sway within the EU, besides if the German's can't (via veto) export to the UK then they will suffer as a nation.
I feel sad, as to devide the EU into nation states increases definitely the power of USA and our dependency of them. I wished the EU would have been forced to solve problems more than to despair of them. The freedom and power of a united Europe for me is worthwhile even if I am unsatisfied with a number of decisions of the actual European administration.
Greetings Ingo.
The sentiment of co-operation still exists within the UK I believe (and myself)! In fact it was Churchill who said we should unite as independent, but sovereign nations.
PS I would be interested to know where you are from ingo!
Things like this are what I am talking about, no input just insults from afar.
he has a face that deserves pisstaking, hes an idiot with no viable alternatives and you all fell for it hook line and sinker, hes already admitted on tv that saying that the 350 million we send to the EU and could be fed into the NHS was a mistake.........or lies? Oo
at the end of the day what money is saved from the EU WONT be seen by the general population
Professional Mel-the-Bell Simulator................"So realistic, I found myself reaching for the Kleenex King-Size!" - Richard Darling
It doesn't matter what German car makers want, it will only take ONE of the member nations to veto a trade deal with the UK that they see as better than the one they have themselves. Not all of the EU countries have trade deficits with the UK, it would be no skin off their nose. As for the things that the Brexitters thought they were voting for, those have already been reneged on: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/3-brexit-promises-campaigners-wriggled-8271762
Then we will buy non-EU cars, eg. Nissan, Hyundai, Ford etc..
Heck, we may even be able to resurrect the UK's car industry!
And Germany does have quite a sway within the EU, besides if the German's can't (via veto) export to the UK then they will suffer as a nation.
You know that this is about more than just import and export tariffs, right? About 80% of the UK economy is based on services. The EU has little incentive to let the UK keep its passport for the sale of services into the EU. One of the biggest areas of trade that Britain could offer to non-EU countries was in services and access to the EU single market. We could sell banking or insurance services in France, Germany, Italy etc to companies in the US, India, China etc. Well, that's fucked into a cocked hat now.
Are we definitely out though? Does a referendum mean that the bigwigs have to go through the process of leaving the EU now, or does it just give them the option?
It wasn't a legally binging referendum; ie. the result of the vote doesn't automatically change the law.
It still needs an Act of Parliament for the UK Government to approach the European Council to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty before anything actually changes. In theory the government could ignore the referendum results or call another one - in practice this would be political suicide, so we're leaving - it's just a question of when and how.
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Then we will buy non-EU cars, eg. Nissan, Hyundai, Ford etc..
Heck, we may even be able to resurrect the UK's car industry!
And Germany does have quite a sway within the EU, besides if the German's can't (via veto) export to the UK then they will suffer as a nation.
Every foreign automaker wants to continue to trade with Britain. Selling you a car means $ in their pockets. It's the other way around selling into the EU where access may be restricted.
A UK auto industry without secure access to a large market would mean high per unit production costs, tariffs to protect industry from foreign automakers and more expensive cars in the local market. That only makes the British people poorer.
Negotiating a trade deal as an outsider of the EU is very different from working on trade issues inside the EU. If you're inside the EU, your interests matter. If you're outside, they don't. The UK will be negotiating with a party that's looking out for its own interests and that will mean compromise in the form of reduced access or tariffs between the two parties. You will not get a better trade deal after brexit but what the UK may have going for it is its economy has had time to integrate into the EU so the UK's interests may align better with the EU's than, say, the US or Canada which are also negotiating free trade deals with the EU.
And I disagree... a trade deal does not automatically mean you have to accept freedom of labour movement, although that's something that would be very desirable for the UK in terms of addressing skills shortages and giving opportunity to citizens, somewhat less so for the EU (the EU already has free labour movement over a large economy so missing the UK has only small impact). And if you accept free labour movement, that will mean you will have to accept the refugees flooding Europe who will ultimately become naturalized citizens. The UK can negotiate a trade deal without labour movement, as Canada has (a smaller economy with far less trade with the EU), although in Canada's case there are provisions for labour movement that are largely motivated to allow multinationals to staff foreign offices with citizens from home.
As for what it means for the UK's future, the direct impact is this. Why invest in the UK if it does not have secure access to a larger EU market on its shores when the UK's needs could be served from Europe.
This is already the discussion here (in Canada). The UK was seen as a logical entry point into the EU when the Canada-EU free trade agreement was negotiated. Now the talk is things have to be re-thought because Canadian business does not have as much contact with the rest of Europe as they do with the UK.
The money you're not sending to the EU? That's going to be spent in the UK on additional bureaucracy to manage your borders and to replace services the EU was providing to the UK. There will be no windfall.
People ask me why I (and my party) can be pro-Scottish independence but against leaving the EU. It's simple, we want the powers held in Westminster rather than the ones held in Brussels, because the powers held in Westminster are the important ones that allow real control over taxes, benefits, laws, infrastructure and the way we manage society.
All the powers you need are held there, but they are not exercised in your benefit because the establishment only invests and cares about certain parts of the country.
Nothing has changed. Those powers are still held in Westminster and they still won't invest in the parts of the country they don't care about. All the "new" money will continue to go the favoured areas, but now you won't get any money from the EU.
Both Wales (the country) and Cornwall are looking for some reassurance that they will not be worse off due to Brexit. They both received funding from the EU. They also both voted to Leave.
For me the problem is that the real power that rules us is a financial one, that acts international while the influence of national administration ends at the border. A fall back into scattered regionalism will disempowering national adminstration I think.
There's been MUCH criticism across the EU about Brussels' politics being undemocratic, not transparent enough, too far removed from citizens, etc, etc (Boris Johnson said it well). And rightfully so: the EU is like a train that keeps on steaming ahead no matter how the people on board are feeling. National powers are transferred to Brussels too much, and too quick. With the EU becoming bigger & bigger, majority vote drags individual countries along by their hairs.
Don't get me wrong: I'm a huuuuge fan of close co-operation between European countries. But that's something very different than transferring powers from national level to far less democratic institutions in Brussels. The latter involves a removal of "opt out" in many cases, and that's just wrong when there's so many differences between countries. The Greek way of doing things won't ever be like the Dutch, no matter how hard you try (and that's okay!).
Now the UK says "we've had enough" and voted to take control back into their own hands. Yes there will be negative economic effects (mostly short-term, and mostly for the UK itself). But other EU countries will have a good example when considering to exit themselves.
The EU can't respond in any other way than treat the UK as a good friend leaving, and make some LONG OVERDUE democratic reforms. Either that, or other countries will follow the UK and the EU will fall apart over time.
One way or the other, win-win for democracy across the EU. Thanks for that, UK! :)>-
Watching the BBC coverage. Amused by the foreigns who now think that we're all a bunch of racists that don't like them.
I find it strange how one poll can suddenly alter people's perception so much?
OH MY GOD, IT'S A COUNTRY OF RACISTS !!!
How much it will affect people already living over here, will ultimately come down to the next party to win the election, so it's still uncertain, and these people talking about things as if they're certain, are frankly, morons.
Post edited by chriswyatt on
My only Speccy game (so far): a simple snake clone
Watching the BBC coverage. Amused by the foreigns who now think that we're all a bunch of racists that don't like them.
I find it strange how one poll can suddenly alter people's perception so much?
OH MY GOD, IT'S A COUNTRY OF RACISTS !!!
How much it will affect people already living over here, will ultimately come down to the next party to win the election, so it's still uncertain, and these people talking about things as if they're certain, are frankly, morons.
its been brewing for years and it HAS been brewed by the likes of the EDL, Ukip, BNP etc over the years, stoking the fires so in theory...yes it is
its patriotic pride brought on by xenophobic / racist groups of individuals.
as for your second point, its very uncertain whats now going to happen, and no its not just down to the next government of the UK, Its also down to the other EU nations and how they want to treat us, down to businesses, the banks in this country and abroad and how they want to treat us.
One things for certain, the mps are now going to have to work VERY hard to sort things out behind the scenes
Post edited by mel the bell on
Professional Mel-the-Bell Simulator................"So realistic, I found myself reaching for the Kleenex King-Size!" - Richard Darling
Comments
I voted and have campaigned in one way or another for "Out" for at least two decades, and I'll tell you why, very simple it is called democracy.
I can not believe today's result and I am very happy.
Are we definitely out though? Does a referendum mean that the bigwigs have to go through the process of leaving the EU now, or does it just give them the option?
Boris Trump Oo
Yes, now we have democracy we can hold the elected MP's to account 100% (and not 25% due rules, laws & legislation handed down from Brussels).
The key thing with this excess money is that we can now vote in a party that CAN do what we, as the electorate, want do with it. All to the NHS or a percentage? What percentage? Perhaps spend it on infrastructure or even paying off the national debt standing at £1.7 Trillion (£47k per taxpayer). I have heard of the 'Leave' campaign's message is to think of the children, indeed removing this shackle is a great way to unburden the future generations!
Greetings Ingo.
As for the things that the Brexitters thought they were voting for, those have already been reneged on: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/3-brexit-promises-campaigners-wriggled-8271762
Democracy? You are about to get a Prime Minister that nobody voted for. Well done, LOL.
Heck, we may even be able to resurrect the UK's car industry!
And Germany does have quite a sway within the EU, besides if the German's can't (via veto) export to the UK then they will suffer as a nation.
The sentiment of co-operation still exists within the UK I believe (and myself)! In fact it was Churchill who said we should unite as independent, but sovereign nations.
PS I would be interested to know where you are from ingo!
http://theslot.jezebel.com/man-who-voted-for-brexit-is-a-bit-shocked-his-vote-coun-1782553004
Things like this are what I am talking about, no input just insults from afar.
How do you know the people googling what the eu is were people who voted to leave? Isn't it a private vote?
What a crap article.
at the end of the day what money is saved from the EU WONT be seen by the general population
You know that this is about more than just import and export tariffs, right? About 80% of the UK economy is based on services. The EU has little incentive to let the UK keep its passport for the sale of services into the EU. One of the biggest areas of trade that Britain could offer to non-EU countries was in services and access to the EU single market. We could sell banking or insurance services in France, Germany, Italy etc to companies in the US, India, China etc. Well, that's fucked into a cocked hat now.
It wasn't a legally binging referendum; ie. the result of the vote doesn't automatically change the law.
It still needs an Act of Parliament for the UK Government to approach the European Council to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty before anything actually changes. In theory the government could ignore the referendum results or call another one - in practice this would be political suicide, so we're leaving - it's just a question of when and how.
Everyone has a crap game inside them, let yours out!
Every foreign automaker wants to continue to trade with Britain. Selling you a car means $ in their pockets. It's the other way around selling into the EU where access may be restricted.
A UK auto industry without secure access to a large market would mean high per unit production costs, tariffs to protect industry from foreign automakers and more expensive cars in the local market. That only makes the British people poorer.
Negotiating a trade deal as an outsider of the EU is very different from working on trade issues inside the EU. If you're inside the EU, your interests matter. If you're outside, they don't. The UK will be negotiating with a party that's looking out for its own interests and that will mean compromise in the form of reduced access or tariffs between the two parties. You will not get a better trade deal after brexit but what the UK may have going for it is its economy has had time to integrate into the EU so the UK's interests may align better with the EU's than, say, the US or Canada which are also negotiating free trade deals with the EU.
And I disagree... a trade deal does not automatically mean you have to accept freedom of labour movement, although that's something that would be very desirable for the UK in terms of addressing skills shortages and giving opportunity to citizens, somewhat less so for the EU (the EU already has free labour movement over a large economy so missing the UK has only small impact). And if you accept free labour movement, that will mean you will have to accept the refugees flooding Europe who will ultimately become naturalized citizens. The UK can negotiate a trade deal without labour movement, as Canada has (a smaller economy with far less trade with the EU), although in Canada's case there are provisions for labour movement that are largely motivated to allow multinationals to staff foreign offices with citizens from home.
As for what it means for the UK's future, the direct impact is this. Why invest in the UK if it does not have secure access to a larger EU market on its shores when the UK's needs could be served from Europe.
This is already the discussion here (in Canada). The UK was seen as a logical entry point into the EU when the Canada-EU free trade agreement was negotiated. Now the talk is things have to be re-thought because Canadian business does not have as much contact with the rest of Europe as they do with the UK.
The money you're not sending to the EU? That's going to be spent in the UK on additional bureaucracy to manage your borders and to replace services the EU was providing to the UK. There will be no windfall.
Write games in C using Z88DK and SP1
People ask me why I (and my party) can be pro-Scottish independence but against leaving the EU. It's simple, we want the powers held in Westminster rather than the ones held in Brussels, because the powers held in Westminster are the important ones that allow real control over taxes, benefits, laws, infrastructure and the way we manage society.
All the powers you need are held there, but they are not exercised in your benefit because the establishment only invests and cares about certain parts of the country.
Nothing has changed. Those powers are still held in Westminster and they still won't invest in the parts of the country they don't care about. All the "new" money will continue to go the favoured areas, but now you won't get any money from the EU.
Ingo.
There's been MUCH criticism across the EU about Brussels' politics being undemocratic, not transparent enough, too far removed from citizens, etc, etc (Boris Johnson said it well). And rightfully so: the EU is like a train that keeps on steaming ahead no matter how the people on board are feeling. National powers are transferred to Brussels too much, and too quick. With the EU becoming bigger & bigger, majority vote drags individual countries along by their hairs.
Don't get me wrong: I'm a huuuuge fan of close co-operation between European countries. But that's something very different than transferring powers from national level to far less democratic institutions in Brussels. The latter involves a removal of "opt out" in many cases, and that's just wrong when there's so many differences between countries. The Greek way of doing things won't ever be like the Dutch, no matter how hard you try (and that's okay!).
Now the UK says "we've had enough" and voted to take control back into their own hands. Yes there will be negative economic effects (mostly short-term, and mostly for the UK itself). But other EU countries will have a good example when considering to exit themselves.
The EU can't respond in any other way than treat the UK as a good friend leaving, and make some LONG OVERDUE democratic reforms. Either that, or other countries will follow the UK and the EU will fall apart over time.
One way or the other, win-win for democracy across the EU. Thanks for that, UK! :)>-
I find it strange how one poll can suddenly alter people's perception so much?
OH MY GOD, IT'S A COUNTRY OF RACISTS !!!
How much it will affect people already living over here, will ultimately come down to the next party to win the election, so it's still uncertain, and these people talking about things as if they're certain, are frankly, morons.
its patriotic pride brought on by xenophobic / racist groups of individuals.
as for your second point, its very uncertain whats now going to happen, and no its not just down to the next government of the UK, Its also down to the other EU nations and how they want to treat us, down to businesses, the banks in this country and abroad and how they want to treat us.
One things for certain, the mps are now going to have to work VERY hard to sort things out behind the scenes