i`ve found the european reaction quite intersting today.
We had the five ( yes countem five ) foreign ministers saying the uk should hurry up and get out - from which i gather these are the only five countries whose oppinions count out of the 27 member states.
Oh noes, we've made a mistake, can we have another go? >50% shouldn't be enough, let's change the rules after the vote, and demand >60% majority! (or something like that).
Sore losers, imho. Getting to vote in a referendum is a rare opportunity. Think, then act. Don't Google what just happened after you did 0 research and then went to vote. ~:>
Farage himself said that he would push for a second referendum if the result was as close as 52% / 48%. Of course that was when he thought he would be on the losing side.
If the aiim of the EU is to become a single unified government with the same laws applying across all the members, then how could Scotland maintain its independence?
It isn't and never has been.
Which one, cos that`s definately the aim of the eu
A great day for democracy! (....).Thanks for that, UK! :)>-
Completely agree on both issues.
On the other hand: It is good to see that still so many british want to help Greece with its load of debts... Please continue the good work.
What I see here on WOS could imho be brought down to a discussion between 'we want more earnings and a better life' and 'we want more democracy and more saying'. From the news on tv I understand that the chosen priority is connected with age.
Some hard facts seem to have been forgotten completely:
1. The ECB is printing money by billions for keeping the European economy going, all without being controlled by any government or equal. (There are accepted theories that such won't work in the end).
2. None of the representatives in Brussels is chosen by 'us' European inhabitants, nor are the 4 'presidents'. No campaigns, no presentations, most names not known. (There exist other definitions of democracy)
3. In NL some 30-40% of the laws that are passing the parliament are not dutch but european. (The level of control over daily life is enormous)
Damn, that's sad. Sad, but also not particularly surprising. You have idiots that voted remain that think that the other half are a bunch of xenophobes, and you've got idiots in the other half who seem to think that this is what the referendum is all about. Idiots with different political views, who think that the opposing view is idiotic, because they have such limited brainpower they cannot experience empathy (even though other animals, apart from humans, seem to be able to experience it, ironically).
Facebook was a bit of a shock to me (hmm, actually, it wasn't, thinking about it). I haven't been this depressed by my Facebook feed since Amy Winehouse died (some truly disgusting comments that day).
P.S. I hate Facebook. It's like watching a car crash. I'm still curious though.
Post edited by chriswyatt on
My only Speccy game (so far): a simple snake clone
A great day for democracy! (....).Thanks for that, UK! :)>-
Completely agree on both issues.
On the other hand: It is good to see that still so many british want to help Greece with its load of debts... Please continue the good work.
What I see here on WOS could imho be brought down to a discussion between 'we want more earnings and a better life' and 'we want more democracy and more saying'. From the news on tv I understand that the chosen priority is connected with age.
Some hard facts seem to have been forgotten completely:
1. The ECB is printing money by billions for keeping the European economy going, all without being controlled by any government or equal. (There are accepted theories that such won't work in the end).
2. None of the representatives in Brussels is chosen by 'us' European inhabitants, nor are the 4 'presidents'. No campaigns, no presentations, most names not known. (There exist other definitions of democracy)
3. In NL some 30-40% of the laws that are passing the parliament are not dutch but european. (The level of control over daily life is enormous)
Please explain exactly in what way has being in the EU reduced democracy in the UK. The UK is not part of Schengen or the Euro, it has lost none of its sovereignty in those key areas.
Well th eu could have been a good thing but the germans and french suck as leaders and uk was only interested in money and following his big bro which caused the recession and chaos on irak and siria. I mean politicians, don't take offense.
This isn't an essay competition nor a Spanish inquisition, when i counter your arguments you have never replied, why should someone else spend time indulging you?
This isn't an essay competition nor a Spanish inquisition, when i counter your arguments you have never replied, why should someone else spend time indulging you?
Because I asked you first. It is apparent that you have almost no idea what you are talking about then when it regards the EU. You dodge the questions that you are not able to answer without revealing your ignorance. Your strategy is obvious to anyone reading this thread, in fact I have seen it many times when engaging with Quitters.
Come back when you have something useful to contribute.
! Standby alert !
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb!
Looking forward to summer in Somerset later in the year :)
Oh and @Van_Dammesque, I thought you said you were leaving and not posting again in this thread. Strange that you should come back if you feel you are being insulted :-/
! Standby alert !
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb!
Looking forward to summer in Somerset later in the year :)
Hmm, EU laws, how many am I aware of that have affected me in a negative way? Um, well, none.
How many have I benefited from? Um, well, paid holiday and pay while on holiday that is no worse than when I am at work, maternity and paternity leave rights (okay, I have not needed this, but my one of my team members has just come back from paternity leave), the working time directive, TUPE. Ooo, there's loads. Tell you what, I'll just provide a couple of links:- here and here.
So do I really want 100% control to be passed back to a right wing conservative government that is likely to repeal some of these laws? No thank you.
! Standby alert !
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb!
Looking forward to summer in Somerset later in the year :)
Hmm, EU laws, how many am I aware of that have affected me in a negative way? Um, well, none.
How many have I benefited from? Um, well, paid holiday and pay while on holiday that is no worse than when I am at work, maternity and paternity leave rights (okay, I have not needed this, but my one of my team members has just come back from paternity leave), the working time directive, TUPE. Ooo, there's loads. Tell you what, I'll just provide a couple of links:- here and here.
So do I really want 100% control to be passed back to a right wing conservative government that is likely to repeal some of these laws? No thank you.
But apparently 52% of people do want this.
Mark
This was one of my concerns too. I didn't actually vote, but I was leaning towards out. I'm quite aware of the risks, and it could definitely bit us all in the arse. Time will tell.
Post edited by chriswyatt on
My only Speccy game (so far): a simple snake clone
Hmm, EU laws, how many am I aware of that have affected me in a negative way? Um, well, none.
How many have I benefited from? Um, well, paid holiday and pay while on holiday that is no worse than when I am at work, maternity and paternity leave rights (okay, I have not needed this, but my one of my team members has just come back from paternity leave), the working time directive, TUPE. Ooo, there's loads. Tell you what, I'll just provide a couple of links:- here and here.
So do I really want 100% control to be passed back to a right wing conservative government that is likely to repeal some of these laws? No thank you.
But apparently 52% of people do want this.
Mark
This is true, however whats to say a uk government wouldn`t have introduced these laws ? Add to that that you can vote for a government that can chnge these laws every five years.
As for the right wing tory arguments, well we had a labour government for how many years and what did they repeal, how many firms did they save ( rover anyone ), and how many wars did they get us into. The only thing they re-nationalised was railtrack, and the wad only because they failed to keep a proper eye on them and theh f***ed up on their watch.
So left right or middle makes no difference cos 50% of the population will be unhappy either way and all governments make mistakes, but you can at least get shot if them evry five years.
Hmm, EU laws, how many am I aware of that have affected me in a negative way? Um, well, none.
How many have I benefited from? Um, well, paid holiday and pay while on holiday that is no worse than when I am at work, maternity and paternity leave rights (okay, I have not needed this, but my one of my team members has just come back from paternity leave), the working time directive, TUPE. Ooo, there's loads. Tell you what, I'll just provide a couple of links:- here and here.
So do I really want 100% control to be passed back to a right wing conservative government that is likely to repeal some of these laws? No thank you.
But apparently 52% of people do want this.
Mark
This is true, however whats to say a uk government wouldn`t have introduced these laws ? Add to that that you can vote for a government that can chnge these laws every five years.
As for the right wing tory arguments, well we had a labour government for how many years and what did they repeal, how many firms did they save ( rover anyone ), and how many wars did they get us into. The only thing they re-nationalised was railtrack, and the wad only because they failed to keep a proper eye on them and theh f***ed up on their watch.
So left right or middle makes no difference cos 50% of the population will be unhappy either way and all governments make mistakes, but you can at least get shot if them evry five years.
I think it will be a lot more than 50% when many of the Leave voters do not see the changes they expect, and it dawns on them they have been sold a lie.
Please explain exactly in what way has being in the EU reduced democracy in the UK. The UK is not part of Schengen or the Euro, it has lost none of its sovereignty in those key areas.
Specific UK-EU issues are not relevant for me, being dutch. Someone has to stand up in Europe (imho) and UK did and I am grateful. Is leaving a wise thing to do? I am strongly convinced that economicly there is no reason for fearmongering. (Just an opinion)
I agree that UK was not upfront in EU. That imho made it possible for them to quit. Note that the results of two dutch referenda against european issues already have been ignored and nothing can be done about that....
I notice that EU already(!) started with making promisses about things that have to change. (That's a fact).
So the quitting of UK already did those who where left behind some good.....
Please explain why EU did not make those promisses a week earlier, it might have changed the outcome.
And explain what the status is of the 'original 6' group inside EU, plus the democratic value of their opinion.
I have untill now never heard of the existance of such institute.
An interesting take on it from the guardians comments section, no idea if its correct, suppose we'll find out sooner than later
Interesting post in the comments of the Guardian yesterday:
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
How?
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.
If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.
Professional Mel-the-Bell Simulator................"So realistic, I found myself reaching for the Kleenex King-Size!" - Richard Darling
Just a small selection from the last 2 days, there are plenty more:
Ahh nothing like the anecdotal evidence from the twitter-sphere to back one's argument!
Anecdotal? Are you suggesting that bloke's "send 'em back" T-shirt and that NF banner in Newcastle are photoshopped? Grow up.
lol, let him have his 5 minutes of glory before it all goes down the pan, hes in a dream world if he thinks its some magical working class victory for the working class. Its a victory for the far right its what theyve been banging on about for decades, theyve finally achieved it.
Its skewed patriotism.
Post edited by mel the bell on
Professional Mel-the-Bell Simulator................"So realistic, I found myself reaching for the Kleenex King-Size!" - Richard Darling
Please explain exactly in what way has being in the EU reduced democracy in the UK. The UK is not part of Schengen or the Euro, it has lost none of its sovereignty in those key areas.
Specific UK-EU issues are not relevant for me, being dutch. Someone has to stand up in Europe (imho) and UK did and I am grateful. Is leaving a wise thing to do? I am strongly convinced that economicly there is no reason for fearmongering. (Just an opinion)
I agree that UK was not upfront in EU. That imho made it possible for them to quit. Note that the results of two dutch referenda against european issues already have been ignored and nothing can be done about that....
I notice that EU already(!) started with making promisses about things that have to change. (That's a fact).
So the quitting of UK already did those who where left behind some good.....
Please explain why EU did not make those promisses a week earlier, it might have changed the outcome.
And explain what the status is of the 'original 6' group inside EU, plus the democratic value of their opinion.
I have untill now never heard of the existance of such institute.
Consider the original 6 as 'core' members. They have no official special status, but they now constitute the largest remaining economies. All EU leaders are meeting this week, let us see what happens then.
A recent poll suggests only 36% of Dutch public would support leaving the EU. Significant number, but nowhere near enough to win an in-out referendum.
Also, the recent referendums are only advisory. The governments have no obligation to act on the results.
Apparently 2 million people have signed an online petition to have another vote on the referendum, i guess this is because the vote didn't go their way.
Just a small selection from the last 2 days, there are plenty more:
Ahh nothing like the anecdotal evidence from the twitter-sphere to back one's argument!
That's also a bit rich considering that at least some of the Leave campaigns success is down to anecdotal tales about immigration and the EU. During interviews people have cited their intention to vote leave was based on immigrants taking housing, jobs, school places etc. Yet when asked if they had personal experience of that their answer was very often "no".
Having looked on various forums and Twitter posts I've seen the words 'racists' and 'far right' used when describing leave voters. I think Farage is a clown and the likes of the BNP and EDL are knuckle dragging Neanderthals and I work alongside people of various nationalities and ethnic backgrounds with absolutely no problems.
However I voted leave so does that make me:
A) racist
B) merely xenophobic
C) someone who lives in an Democratic country and is free to have an opinion
Please advise.
A+B are not mutually exclusive, so... All of the above?
Comments
Those are the 5 founding members of the EU.
Farage himself said that he would push for a second referendum if the result was as close as 52% / 48%. Of course that was when he thought he would be on the losing side.
No it isn't. Nigel was talking sh1te.
Behave. I'm not listening to that pair of fcuknuts.
On the other hand: It is good to see that still so many british want to help Greece with its load of debts... Please continue the good work.
What I see here on WOS could imho be brought down to a discussion between 'we want more earnings and a better life' and 'we want more democracy and more saying'. From the news on tv I understand that the chosen priority is connected with age.
Some hard facts seem to have been forgotten completely:
1. The ECB is printing money by billions for keeping the European economy going, all without being controlled by any government or equal. (There are accepted theories that such won't work in the end).
2. None of the representatives in Brussels is chosen by 'us' European inhabitants, nor are the 4 'presidents'. No campaigns, no presentations, most names not known. (There exist other definitions of democracy)
3. In NL some 30-40% of the laws that are passing the parliament are not dutch but european. (The level of control over daily life is enormous)
Facebook was a bit of a shock to me (hmm, actually, it wasn't, thinking about it). I haven't been this depressed by my Facebook feed since Amy Winehouse died (some truly disgusting comments that day).
P.S. I hate Facebook. It's like watching a car crash. I'm still curious though.
Instead of posting sh1te like this why don't you answer the questions put to you multiple times? Eh??
Please explain exactly in what way has being in the EU reduced democracy in the UK. The UK is not part of Schengen or the Euro, it has lost none of its sovereignty in those key areas.
JSpeccy-win32-portable
How many insults from the Remainers have we seen on these forums?
You think that they are equivalent in severity? Really?
Because I asked you first. It is apparent that you have almost no idea what you are talking about then when it regards the EU. You dodge the questions that you are not able to answer without revealing your ignorance. Your strategy is obvious to anyone reading this thread, in fact I have seen it many times when engaging with Quitters.
Come back when you have something useful to contribute.
Repair Guides. Spanish Hardware site.
WoS - can't download? Info here...
former Meulie Spectrum Archive but no longer available :-(
Spectranet: the TNFS directory thread
! Standby alert !
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb!
Looking forward to summer in Somerset later in the year :)
Repair Guides. Spanish Hardware site.
WoS - can't download? Info here...
former Meulie Spectrum Archive but no longer available :-(
Spectranet: the TNFS directory thread
! Standby alert !
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb!
Looking forward to summer in Somerset later in the year :)
How many have I benefited from? Um, well, paid holiday and pay while on holiday that is no worse than when I am at work, maternity and paternity leave rights (okay, I have not needed this, but my one of my team members has just come back from paternity leave), the working time directive, TUPE. Ooo, there's loads. Tell you what, I'll just provide a couple of links:- here and here.
So do I really want 100% control to be passed back to a right wing conservative government that is likely to repeal some of these laws? No thank you.
But apparently 52% of people do want this.
Mark
Repair Guides. Spanish Hardware site.
WoS - can't download? Info here...
former Meulie Spectrum Archive but no longer available :-(
Spectranet: the TNFS directory thread
! Standby alert !
“There are four lights!”
Step up to red alert. Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb!
Looking forward to summer in Somerset later in the year :)
This was one of my concerns too. I didn't actually vote, but I was leaning towards out. I'm quite aware of the risks, and it could definitely bit us all in the arse. Time will tell.
This is true, however whats to say a uk government wouldn`t have introduced these laws ? Add to that that you can vote for a government that can chnge these laws every five years.
As for the right wing tory arguments, well we had a labour government for how many years and what did they repeal, how many firms did they save ( rover anyone ), and how many wars did they get us into. The only thing they re-nationalised was railtrack, and the wad only because they failed to keep a proper eye on them and theh f***ed up on their watch.
So left right or middle makes no difference cos 50% of the population will be unhappy either way and all governments make mistakes, but you can at least get shot if them evry five years.
I think it will be a lot more than 50% when many of the Leave voters do not see the changes they expect, and it dawns on them they have been sold a lie.
I agree that UK was not upfront in EU. That imho made it possible for them to quit. Note that the results of two dutch referenda against european issues already have been ignored and nothing can be done about that....
I notice that EU already(!) started with making promisses about things that have to change. (That's a fact).
So the quitting of UK already did those who where left behind some good.....
Please explain why EU did not make those promisses a week earlier, it might have changed the outcome.
And explain what the status is of the 'original 6' group inside EU, plus the democratic value of their opinion.
I have untill now never heard of the existance of such institute.
.
Anecdotal? Are you suggesting that bloke's "send 'em back" T-shirt and that NF banner in Newcastle are photoshopped? Grow up.
Its skewed patriotism.
Consider the original 6 as 'core' members. They have no official special status, but they now constitute the largest remaining economies. All EU leaders are meeting this week, let us see what happens then.
A recent poll suggests only 36% of Dutch public would support leaving the EU. Significant number, but nowhere near enough to win an in-out referendum.
Also, the recent referendums are only advisory. The governments have no obligation to act on the results.
That's also a bit rich considering that at least some of the Leave campaigns success is down to anecdotal tales about immigration and the EU. During interviews people have cited their intention to vote leave was based on immigrants taking housing, jobs, school places etc. Yet when asked if they had personal experience of that their answer was very often "no".
A+B are not mutually exclusive, so... All of the above?