WOS Starts to take shape

2»

Comments

  • Bit belated, I've been a bit sicky so been missing stuff.

    Good work guys, its looking really really beautiful. It is going to be weird after being use to this old site, bit like a new TARDIS. But I'm sure we'll all break it in like a shiny pair of shoes ;)

    Keep up the good work. "Wot a bunch of troopers!"
    Might be worth a visit to luny.co.uk.
  • I see no reason you are trying so hard to criticize this effort instead of benefiting from it?

    Speaking in my capacity as a layperson all I can see is Einar offering up a fully working and future-proofed solution to several years of no archive updates or fixes on WOS and Lee just stubbornly refusing his help again and again. I can sort of understand if you're "offended", Lee, as this is apparently your area of expertise but I've never read any of Einar's comments as an attack on your abilities or knowledge of databases etc.

    I know you've probably invested loads of time in the new WOS but if someone else has already solved some of the problems you're working on still then why not just accept their help? Life's too short, the sunk cost fallacy, [insert other stuff here etc etc]. This is supposed to be a collaborative effort anyway. It's not as if you put all of WOS together yourself, is it? It's down to the hundreds of people who contributed information, files, images, corrections etc. Why not accept help if it's there?

    Also, you did mention in the WOS Birthday thread that you'd summarise what was said. Other than crisps, was there anything of any value that me and my fellow visitors might want to know about? You mentioned something about anyone being able to use the API for instance. I know criticism of any description is now labelled as trolling or moaning or whatever but lack of communication is a big issue in the whole Spectrum "scene" at the moment so I think it'd be really helpful if you could post a summary as I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to know what was discussed.

    Cheers.
  • I'm not refusing the help - I am questioning the amount of work involved in actually using the data produced without any input from the system actually using it. It's *not* in any way future proof on its own as it either relies on 1 person checking the data (which we know doesn't work as a long term solution), or anyone amending it because there *is no system*. It's a series of SQL statements. It's the equivalent of posting a spreadsheet and letting anyone edit it.

    Who is managing the data? Who is checking the amends? Where are the files stored?

    Jonesy has software running on his server using ZXDB - so I ask again - what is the use of the permissions table? All it says is WoS has the permissions - that can be ignored. Which it will be because it's using a 3rd party server for the files. So saying "yeah - we say where the permissions came from and who they are for" is pointless.

    There is ultimately very little in ZXDB that can be used by WoS.
    My test signature
  • edited December 2016
    OK. That being the case, was there anything in the WOS Birthday discussion that might be useful for others to know about? I'm still not entirely sure what the plans for the new site are and other than reading the odd comment here and there I'm still none the wiser. I got the impression that it'd be a lot easier to update, for instance. Was that something that was covered?
    Post edited by richl on
  • It was covered that it's much easier to update WoS. There is a change request form on each page generated that informs admin that there are files uploaded, etc. The system allows me to set up admins for different parts of the site - for example, Darren could manage the rzx videos without seeing admin for infoseek. So, several people can admin magazine pages without getting bogged down with emails for games, etc..

    There is also a "verify" button on each entry that appears whenever it is changed - this is a basic 2nd level verification - site verification can be done with zero admin access.

    Every change is logged against the person that made it, and making an update forces the user to add a field explaining the update and who requested it - this is shown on the front end under latest changes per entry as well as a general page that will be created showing all changes.

    Changes are immediate so will be constant.

    There's also a lot more information that can be entered than there was before, including publishers notes/drawings/etc.

    We currently have over 2500 hi-res inlays to be added, and will be moving everything to hi-res. In due course, we will publish the requirements for inlays, magazine pages, etc.

    The site is also multi-lingual and will be inviting people to produce translations of magazine pages, convert existing pages to text as well as the hi-res images, etc.

    It sounds like a huge amount of work - the advantage of multiple admin users is that each user can choose what they manage and not be bothered with notifications for things they aren't managing.
    My test signature
    Thanked by 1DavidB
  • That sounds really good! :)
  • In addition, every section of infoseek can export the entire list or search results to CSV. It's a cut down version of the database as none of the smaller lists used as indexes are needed. For example, a title may say it's for 48k but the database says it's type_id 1 - the CSV is more useful for personal lists and exports, but could also be used to create your own DB if you wanted to.

    The API produces either single results or specific lists/search results - pretty much as the old WoS one did. Results are returned in JSON format and can easily be used to replicate WoS. As well as the virtual file_id for individual files (used to access files on the WoS server), there is a filesystem stored that matches the old WoS directory - as replicated on other servers. This has the added advantage that it is always updated so the end user has no need to synchronise data. There is a daily usage limit for files to stop leeching, but it will be set to be enough for general browsing.

    Finally - in addition to the new inlays, we have the ability to store multiple screenshots so a gallery can be shown, different versions of games, 1TB new data to sort through, thousands of titles to add that aren't available elsewhere yet, various documents, smaller things like business cards/christmas cards, etc. People have been extremely generous with offering new material to upload.
    My test signature
  • You were on FB chat for a while, then stopped communicating with me completely, then released a load of SQL statements on WoS. From my point of view, you got the dat files and buggered off to do what *you* wanted with them.

    Except that's not how it happened.

    Let me refresh your memory with a few facts. I will even provide links for your convenience:


    * July 3: You posted "Had enough", announcing you were leaving WoS and there was no plan in place to replace you:

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/52892/had-enough/p1


    * At the same day, concerned about uncertain future of WoS, I started developing ZXDB as an effort to preserve WoS archive content:

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/869784/#Comment_869784


    * July 11: After working on the ZXDB model for about a week, I publicly published the database schema as ZXDB. My announcement started with "Recently, I have been trying to figure out how to provide my contribution to whoever takes over WoS archive rework next... So I came up with this:"

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/52951/database-model-zxdb/p1


    * July 12: A day later, I listed my plans for ZXDB, explaining that next step would be importing data from WoS:

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/867968/#Comment_867968


    * You posted comments (on the same thread above) comparing ZXDB to your original plans for new WoS (that were abandoned at the time) and even suggesting what else I had to do in order to implement a new WoS archive, although I made it clear I was only planning to create the database, import and clean WoS data, not create a site myself:

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/868013/#Comment_868013


    * Soon afterwards we started talking directly. You asked me to join you and Gerard in a FB chat and, although I didn't have an account (I still don't), I created a temporary account just so we could talk. As part of this conversation, you gave me the original WoS files so I could import them into ZXDB. And you were still trying to convince me to take over WoS site development, although I always made it clear I was only interested in importing WoS data into ZXDB and I was hoping someone else would take over WoS development and benefit from it (which turned out to be you again).


    * July 16: Just a couple days later, I was able to import lots of WoS data and release the first version of ZXDB containing data imported from WoS:

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/868577/#Comment_868577


    * Soon afterwards you asked me to continue our discussions and efforts (to clarify difficult old WoS archive details) with Gerard. I continued to talk with him for many weeks, and my most obscure questions were answered by you and/or Martijn.


    * All this time, you and the rest of WoS management team were supporting my efforts, while I continued to release new ZXDB versions with improvements and fixes on data imported from WoS:

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/869638/#Comment_869638

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/874272/#Comment_874272


    * August 25: Over a month after ZXDB and WoS imports started, your opinion was that you could use ZXDB. Your exact worfs were "It currently doesn't match the work already done - but it's nothing that can't be used."

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/874272/#Comment_874272


    * September 13: About 3 weeks later, you took me by surprise when your opinion changed to importing data from ZXDB instead of using it. Your exact words were "I'll be using the cleaned data and converting to the WoS format - after that, I will get together with Einar to work out the best way of using ZXDB moving forward. [...] On the bright side, I don't have to test the import scripts as Einar has done that work":

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/877589/#Comment_877589


    * December 10: Another 3 months later, I was surprised again by your new decision to not import cleaned data from ZXDB anymore, but instead just try to match new IDs. Your exact words were "No - it's not compatible and we are too far down the line to change things. However, we will do our utmost to match the new Id's."

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/889132/#Comment_889132


    * December 14: Another 4 days later, there was another surprise. Apparently I vanished a long time ago and you were never aware of anything I was doing with ZXDB, despite the fact there were 35 updates to ZXDB over the last 5 months and you regularly posted comments and suggestions yourself in the ZXDB thread all this time.

    There was virtually no discussion with me apart from some questions via a 3rd party on what some of the dat file details were.

    I have mentioned Gerard repeatedly in the ZXDB thread for months, mostly to thank him for his work. So if I wasn't suppose to reveal he's the "3rd party" you are talking about, I'm afraid it's too late.

    The only reason I continued these discussions with Gerard only for several months afterwards, instead of discussing with you directly, was because you asked me to do so. Although he kept you informed and you had no problem answering some of my questions that he forwarded to you. Please don't make it sound like I was discussing with a "3rd party" (instead of you) against your will!

    No discussions on the extra details we have to add.

    As I mentioned in my previous post, for the last 2 months I have being repeatedly asking for details about the database model you had in mind (which would include whatever extra details you are mentioning now). Moreover, the first time I asked to see your database model (to ensure ZXDB compatibility) was July 12:

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/867997/#Comment_867997

    Did you even know about the different versions of titles we are listing that aren't re-releases?

    ZXDB already supports storing different versions of titles that aren't re-releases. A few entries from old WoS archive contained different versions for 48K and 128K, or a different file for each idiom, for instance. The "downloads" table in ZXDB contains extra fields with information to distinguish them, even when they are all associated to the same release.

    Or that we have 1TB additional data to go through to add to WoS?

    I'm fully aware there are lots more files uploaded to WoS still waiting to be added to the archive. I uploaded some of these files myself to WoS ftp site back in 2012 and 2013, after WoS archive stopped being updated. Moreover I have another 5Gb of files in my Dropbox account waiting for the chance to be added to WoS.

    The fact WoS wasn't processing files anymore was the sole reason I started storing files myself, to ensure these files wouldn't be lost while waiting WoS archive to be fixed! For instance:

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/869144/#Comment_869144
    Creator of ZXDB, BIFROST/NIRVANA, ZX7/RCS, etc. I don't frequent this forum anymore, please look for me elsewhere.
  • edited December 2016
    Hey my speadsheet can only be edited by Einar and me.
    I've been quite scrupulous to maintain the archive of games, following updates of the same game, checking up other sites, etc of course you should get new releases on your own. I just share my personal archive with everyone and your team can always check integrity of some files if needed (I can zip it and send it to you, use clamwin antivirus just in case) though I understand that your team have been collecting games, I didn't know that.
    As for Einar's hard work, you have said there is barely content of use in zxdb? despite he states to have fixed thousand of inconsistencies and catalogued loose information.
    About the lack of initial communication between Lee and Einar, it's hard for me to believe since he's been answering like eighty or more of my emails. It must have been a misunderstanding. He just saw a lot of broken content and decided that csv was not the best way to work on them to repair it. Now it can be adapted to your work easily, so what's the problem?
    Post edited by hikoki on
  • ASH-II wrote: »
    I think he is just saying use the data in zxdb to import into wos not use zxdb all the time

    so 80% of the work you want is already done for you and he is willing to sort the data anyway you want.

    after the initial import you then start adding the extra stuff.....and zxdb will not be needed as wos will have the data

    They only way I could do that is change the import scripts I've written to import from a CSV instead of the dat.

    Another way you could do that is, simply tell me your database schema and I will import it for you. Or let me know the exact CSV format you want, and I will export it for you.

    Which is doable apart from new entries also have to have files uploaded

    Of course.

    New entries will have to have files uploaded anyway, regardless if you will initially import existing content from old WoS archive or ZXDB.

    If this is supposed to be an argument for the reason you won't import data from ZXDB and prefer to import from old WoS archive (without all inconsistency fixes I have applied already), this argument makes no sense.

    the infoseek numbering is wrong and badly thought out

    ZXDB keeps exactly the same Infoseek numbering from old WoS archive. More precisely:

    * Range 0000001 to 0028187: Spectrum games

    * Range 1000000 to 1000968: Hardware devices

    * Range 2000000 to 2001484: Books

    * Range 4000001 to 4000143: Timex games

    Again ZXDB kept the same Infoseek IDs from WoS, for compatibility. Except the range of Spectrum games was extended to accomodate new entries, as follows:

    * Range 0028188 to 0029678: More Spectrum games, previously "lost" inside WoS (referenced but without Infoseek IDs so they could not be searched directly). Yes, it means there were over 1200 games "lost" inside WoS that were properly "recovered" in ZXDB.

    * Range 0030001 to 0030333: New Spectrum games (released after 2012, not previously stored in WoS). Yes, it means over 300 new games were cataloged already.

    Would you mind explaining the reason you think "the infoseek numbering is wrong and badly thought out"?

    re-releases are in a separate table, etc

    Of course not.

    Suppose you have a game called "ABC". It's an arcade-action game for 2 players, for the Spectrum 128K, released in English and Italian, inspired by a certain arcade game, currently distribution denied. In ZXDB, all this information will be stored as a single row of a table called "entries".

    Now suppose this game was first released by Ocean in 1983 for £8.95, then re-released by Hit Squad in 1984 for £4.99, then re-released for the 2nd time by Erbe in 1986 for 1200 ptas,, then finally re-released for the 3rd time by Plansoft in 1989 for £1.95. In ZXDB, all this information will be stored in 4 rows of a table called "releases", each one with a release date and release price, all of them associated with this entry at table "entries". The original release will be stored at "releases" with RELEASE_SEQ = 0, the 1st re-release will have RELEASE_SEQ = 1, the 2nd re-release will have RELEASE_SEQ = 2, the 3rd re-release will have RELEASE_SEQ = 3. No information will be duplicated since only information relevant to each release (i.e release date and release price) will be stored in table "releases".

    This information wasn't organized very well in old WoS archive. It had a single table with fields "original price", "budget price", and "spanish price". if a game had 1 original release and 2 re-releases, and none of them was released in Spain, there was no way to store this information. Also it was unable to store re-release dates, only the date of the original release.

    The SPOT/SPEX database didn't organize this information very well either. Each row had 3 columns for publishers, and 3 for prices. If the same game was re-released more than 3 times, there was no way to store all information.

    For instance, here's a popular game that had 1 original release and 8 re-releases:

    http://www.worldofspectrum.org/infoseekid.cgi?id=0001677

    Since you misunderstood the purpose of the "releases" table in ZXDB, I suppose your new WoS model also suffers from similar problems?

    it sounds like more effort than it's worth at the moment. Plus WoS has over 1000 new entries to add that aren't in ZXDB.

    So all these entries will have to be added to new WoS anyway, regardless if you start new WoS by importing initial data from ZXDB or old WoS archive.

    Again, if this is supposed to be an argument for the reason you won't import data from ZXDB and prefer to import from old WoS archive (without all inconsistency fixes I have applied already), this argument makes no sense.

    And then there's the problem of crediting people with the changes/uploads.

    Again, this is no reason to import data into new WoS from old WoS archive instead of ZXDB.

    Moving forward, it would be useless for ZXDB to have different data to WoS, so what is the solution there?

    The solution is, importing data into new WoS from ZXDB, and making an honest effort to incorporate ZXDB improvements into new WoS where it makes sense.
    Creator of ZXDB, BIFROST/NIRVANA, ZX7/RCS, etc. I don't frequent this forum anymore, please look for me elsewhere.
  • I'm not refusing the help - I am questioning the amount of work involved in actually using the data produced without any input from the system actually using it.

    If you let me know the database model you have, then I'm willing to import data from ZXDB for you. Therefore the amount of work required from you for importing data will be zero. So what amount of work are you questioning exactly?

    It's *not* in any way future proof on its own as it either relies on 1 person checking the data (which we know doesn't work as a long term solution), or anyone amending it because there *is no system*. It's a series of SQL statements.

    Of course.

    ZXDB is basically a cleanup version of old WoS archive, transformed into a coherent database without data duplication and inconsistency issues. It was never supposed to be a long term replacement for WoS.

    Didn't I mention it before? I think I did. Let's see:

    * July 11: "Just to make it clear, I'm not planning to implement any WoS replacement myself! I'm merely providing a database model that others can use. Based on previous forum posts about new WoS development, it seems the old WoS "legacy" database is quite messy. By providing a new "clean" database, I'm hoping to reduce the burden on whoever assumes responsibility over WoS development afterwards."
    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/52951/database-model-zxdb

    * July 12: "These are good points. Whoever takes over WoS site development must not underestimate how much work is involved. Just to make it clear, my contribution will be sorting out the database, then assisting with SQL queries (or alternatively an initialized data structure in Java) to reduce the burden on anyone willing to continue WoS development. I'm already taking a big enough task, there's no chance I can be convinced to do anything else..."
    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/868013/#Comment_868013

    * July 23: "However this initiative doesn't eliminate the need for a new WoS site. Most Speccy fans don't know how to run their own databases, so an easily accessible archive is essential to keep the community alive. Also we are still going to need a central reference for future updates (many people updating their own databases independently would quickly become impossible to reconciliate)."
    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/869784/#Comment_869784

    * July 27: "Sorry but I don't. My goal is to convert current archive into a fully consistent database. This is an essential step to build a new WoS to handle future updates, but someone else will need to take over the following steps. I cannot afford to dedicate more time than I have committed already."
    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/870181/#Comment_870181

    * August 21: "I have no idea. I'm not involved in new WoS, my work on the database is completely independent. You better ask Lee directly."
    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/873559/#Comment_873559

    * October 24: "No, I'm only providing the database, and I will let others provide the interface to update it. I'm sure I have mentioned it in this thread already"
    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/883944/#Comment_883944

    It's the equivalent of posting a spreadsheet and letting anyone edit it.

    No.

    It's the equivalent of posting a spreadsheet, NOT LETTING anyone else edit it, and saying "Here it is. I have organized dozens of disjoint files into a single consistent spreadsheet for you, as we previously agreed. I have fixed literally thousands of problems along the way. You are now welcome to take it from here."

    Except ZXDB is a database, which is a lot more robust and consistent than a spreadsheet.

    Who is managing the data? Who is checking the amends?

    Whoever takes over ZXDB, which was supposed to be the same person that would take over WoS. This was our common plan, until you repeatedly started changing your opinion about it, and misremembering everything that happened before, as detailed here.

    Where are the files stored?

    Elsewhere. Not inside ZXDB. File storage is not part of ZXDB.

    ZXDB only contains meta-data (i.e information about games). It doesn't contain actual games (i.e it doesn't store files).

    Didn't I answer this question before? Yes, I did:

    * July 12: "The database should just contain meta-data information, not the actual files."
    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/867980/#Comment_867980

    * August 6: "The database doesn't contain files, only "meta-data". Even if you take loading screens, I won't use them. They will have to wait until a new WoS archive is implemented."
    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/871412/#Comment_871412

    Jonesy has software running on his server using ZXDB - so I ask again - what is the use of the permissions table? All it says is WoS has the permissions - that can be ignored. Which it will be because it's using a 3rd party server for the files. So saying "yeah - we say where the permissions came from and who they are for" is pointless.

    You seem to misunderstand how copyright works. Allow me to explain.

    Spectrum games are subjected to copyright. The file that contains a certain game is copyrighted data. The copyright owner can deny distribution of this file.

    Information ABOUT Spectrum games are not subjected to copyright. The meta-data about a certain game (i.e information about title, release date, authors, publisher, etc) is not copyrighted. It's OK to provide this information, even if the game itself is distribution denied.

    For this reason, WoS can freely provide "meta-data" information about every Spectrum game, even in cases where copyright owner of a game explicitly forbid WoS access to this game. For instance:

    http://www.worldofspectrum.org/infoseekid.cgi?id=0004256

    For the same reason, other sites hosting game databases (like ZXDB) can freely provide "meta-data" information about every Spectrum game, even in cases where the site didn't obtain explicit distribution permission for these games.

    As far as I know, Jonesy's site doesn't host any files. It only provides "meta-data" information about games, nothing else.

    Strictly speaking, Jonesy's site follows more closely the copyright law than WoS itself, because Jonesy's site doesn't host any copyrighted file at all, although WoS hosts thousands of copyrighted files for which no explicit permission (allowed or denied) could be obtained.

    Notice however that I'm absolutely not criticizing WoS over this! Although WoS doesn't have permission for so many files, it's a well-known fact that WoS has always made the best possible effort to contact copyright owners and respect their permission requests. For this reason, WoS is extremely well respected among major companies, and for this reason everybody is willing to tolerate WoS not strictly following the copyright law... luckily for us!

    There is ultimately very little in ZXDB that can be used by WoS.

    Over the last few months, your opinion changed from "It currently doesn't match the work already done - but it's nothing that can't be used" (August), to "I'll be using the cleaned data and converting to the WoS format. On the bright side, I don't have to test the import scripts as Einar has done that work" (September), to "There is ultimately very little in ZXDB that can be used by WoS" (December).

    Nothing has changed in ZXDB planning since it started. So what has changed on you?
    Creator of ZXDB, BIFROST/NIRVANA, ZX7/RCS, etc. I don't frequent this forum anymore, please look for me elsewhere.
  • 5 gb?? By Yoyohey!! Me does no think Me hoarding more than 1 gb. You mustaffa hoarding Mia treasures ooohh.. did I say my site defiles any coprorock laws? Enuff is Enuff!! Me the dwarf boy will start placing ads Instead of games!! 2017 will **** gold on Me!
  • <The sound of a compere with a loud strong voice carries across the venue> "Roll up! Roll up! Get your tickets NOW. Don't miss out on the outcome of this fight. Please hurry up and take your seats. The next round in this exciting match is about to start. So far ladies and gentlemen, round one and round two have gone to the pretender. Will he win with a knockout blow in the next round?"

    Of course, what we really want, regardless of the remarkably civil thread so far, is for the ordinary users to score a win, by the new WoS being fantastic. And incorporating all available information and data on the ZX Spectrum and the software, magazines, books, etc written for it and for as many details about the hardware, expansions and interfaces as is possible.

    So I'm sure you will all agree, that cooperation makes more sense than warfare.

    Mark
  • 1024MAK wrote: »
    So I'm sure you will all agree, that cooperation makes more sense than warfare.

    Exactly my point. Instead of wasting my time providing evidence against unfounded complains, I would rather use my time to do something productive. My original offer is still valid.


    From Yesterday (my first post in this thread that apparently attracted Lee's rage):

    "If you really cannot use ZXDB model, then please consider at least importing data from ZXDB instead of original WoS archive. Again, there are literally over a thousand inconsistency fixes and new additions to WoS incorporated into ZXDB. Why take a step back? If you fear it would be more work to import from ZXDB instead of original WoS archive, then once again I'm offering to do it for you. Therefore your actual work to import anything will be zero. What do you have to lose?"

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/889603/#Comment_889603


    From July 12 (only a day after I announced ZXDB):

    "Regardless of this, you mentioned that database importing still needs to be done, and it won't be easy. Do you mind if I go ahead and do it? Even if whoever takes over WoS development decides to adopt a different database structure, converting data will be much easier after everything's properly imported into this ZXDS model. Could you please send me whatever data you have?"

    https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/867997/#Comment_867997


    Nothing has changed during the entire ZXDB project. Again, my offer still stands.
    Creator of ZXDB, BIFROST/NIRVANA, ZX7/RCS, etc. I don't frequent this forum anymore, please look for me elsewhere.
  • It is strange to ignore the work Einar Saukas and Hikoki have done in the last few months to clean up, correct and update the data. It is strange to not consider alternative workflows for getting (or importing) updates into the new World of Spectrum database apart from bespoke front-end screens. Accurate and up-to-date data comes from people who are passionate and have an attention to detail, both characteristics Einar and Hikoki have demonstrated in spades.

    Einar has even offered to do the work required to import the ZXDB cleaned data into the new WOS database. That removes any technical objection to using ZXDB's data as a fresh new starting point. Take him up on the offer, if he can't deliver, what have you lost? If he does deliver, the community is better off as a result.

    Saying no to Einar's offer says you don't care about up-to-date and accurate data, or the time and effort that's been invested in it. Because what you have left is expecting that same work to be repeated again. Well, if it wasn't good enough the first time (and unreasonably so), why will the second/third/fourth/fifth attempt be any better?
  • Regardless of the database eventually used, Einar's long history of responses on here show a singular dignity rarely seen on the internet. Bravo, sir.

    Discarding his mammoth efforts feels like a missed opportunity to me to reboot WoS with the cleanest ever data.
  • For the record, I think Lee is well intended. Considering how much time and effort he has already dedicated to building the new WoS site, and daily on WoS management (along with WoS moderators), there should be no doubt he's very passionate about WoS. I'm thankful to him (and others), as I have mentioned it a few times already.

    Therefore I'm assuming this entire discussion mostly happened due to some misunderstanding on how Lee perceived ZXDB. Perhaps he thought ZXDB was an attempt to compete, invalidate or replace all his work on the new WoS site? The fact is, ZXDB only deals with the archive data, and most of Lee's database work has been focused on the additional structure to manage this data (updates, submissions, approvals, etc), besides the site system itself.

    I was hoping ZXDB could be incorporated into WoS solution (after validating if ZXDB structure is really an improvement, as I believe it is). If it's too late, perhaps WoS database model could at least incorporate some ideas from ZXDB where it makes sense. If that's not possible either, then WoS could at least inherit the ZXDB "cleaned" data and continue from there. That's all I'm hoping for.

    If something positive can result from this thread, hopefully it was the chance I had to clarify this misunderstanding, so now Lee can reflect about it all and decide what's best for WoS...
    Creator of ZXDB, BIFROST/NIRVANA, ZX7/RCS, etc. I don't frequent this forum anymore, please look for me elsewhere.
  • edited December 2016
    Einar, I don't see how your work could go to waste.
    If and when WOS is updated, It's hard to imagine it not having the data currently on ZXDB.

    Anyway, I would like to stress that I like what I see on the WOS test site :)
    Seems more content oriented than just having database listings.
    Post edited by 4throck on
  • Assuming no data was discarded, which I can't believe Einar would have done, it should be trivial SQL to repivot the data into any needed format. I'm entirely happy to help if needed, this kind of thing is literally my day job and not even remotely difficult.

    It would be a massive shame to lose the effort that has gone into it so far.
  • hikoki wrote: »
    Proud and glory meh
    This was a bit over the top? I sent the admin a PM the other day.
    Indeed his plans sound good: https://www.worldofspectrum.org/forums/discussion/comment/889651/#Comment_889651
    Christmas is a stressful time of year. Orm, sql, crud, frontend, php, neoasthm.. all sound terrible to me but i'm sure plans will evolve fine next year. cheers

  • I have been away, and I'm kind of sad to see this stand still once again.

    Einar did a wonderful job in compiling all this data, it's something of value that should not go to waste.
    Einar, I would like to once again thank you for your huge effort, in doing this fixing and clean up.

    Lee, please don't waste all this effort, it will shurely help WOS to progress faster.

    I hope all this is swiftly sorted, and WOS will enter a new age of progress.

    NOTE: I wish these kinds of misunderstandings wouldn't happen as often as they seem to happen.
    Thanked by 1Sol_HSA
Sign In or Register to comment.